cultural immersion part 2

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CULTURAL IMMERSION INTERVIEW 1 Cultural Immersion Interview: The Hope and the Despair of the Volunteers and the Homeless Population Karen Sopchak School of Behavioral Science, Liberty University Author Note Karen Sopchak I have no known conflict of interest to disclose. Correspondence concerning this article should be addressed to Karen Sopchak Email: ksopchak@liberty.edu

CULTURAL IMMERSION INTERVIEW 2 Cultural Immersion Interview: The Hope and the Despair of the Volunteers and the homeless population Caring Company Interview with Carolyn Mosser What is the purpose of the Caring Company? The First Presbyterian Church of York sponsors the Caring Company. Their goal is to help the residents of York City gain access to basic needs. Through donations and fundraising, they raise both awareness and funds to provide services to those who need it most. Clients include people experiencing homelessness, poverty, job loss, medical issues, and addiction. The office is in of downtown; it is open five days a week from eight a.m. to four p.m. but offers emergency services as well. The Caring Company believes in making necessities accessible to everyone, regardless of their circumstances. What services does the organization provide? The Caring Company provides food boxes to their clients every Thursday, as well as donated holiday food packages. The clients can also apply for utility help if they face electric or gas termination notices. Often, people who use their services cannot afford life-saving medications, even with state insurance. The organization offers medication payment assistance and transportation services for appointments. Several case workers work with people experiencing homelessness, helping them find shelter and benefits. One of the most popular services is the winter warmth program. In freezing temperatures, the church offers the basement kitchen and facilities for the homeless to sleep. It keeps them out of the elements and warm for the night.

CULTURAL IMMERSION INTERVIEW 3 How are the services advertised? The caring company started printing a small article in the church bulletin in 2010. It garnered enough attention that they expanded their services within the first six months. Now, the Caring Company offers free holiday meals on Thanksgiving, Christmas, and Easter. This is a fantastic opportunity for the congregation and homeless community to learn about the programs. Carolyn shared that they have a fantastic congregation that promotes the organization through different advertising channels. While these have been excellent, by far, the best advertisement for them has been by word of mouth. York does not have many organizations that help people experiencing homelessness, so they remain one of the most used. What are the biggest needs of the organization and the public? The most needed commodity is shelter for people without housing. There are three shelters in York: one for single men and women and one for families. Each shelter only houses about fifteen singles, and the family shelter only houses ten families. The church is only open when temperatures are thirty-two degrees and under, and it is only available from six p.m. to six a.m., housing about thirty people. Pennsylvania gets cold in the winter, and there have been many deaths because of the freezing temperatures. Food is also always in demand. We have roughly one-hundred families coming each week, and sometimes we run out before they all receive their boxes. The Caring Company is one of the busiest organizations in the area, so that is always a concern as well.

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CULTURAL IMMERSION INTERVIEW 4 What challenges does the Caring Company face? One of the biggest challenges for the people Carolyn serves is sobriety. Many of the clients have an addiction; and she said they do not hide it. They offer medication help for people with little to no insurance but have had to pull back the medications they will accept. The shelters in the area are also very strict with drug and alcohol use. Carolyn said that the shelters in the area kick people onto the streets if they appear intoxicated, including the family shelter. More complications arise when the children are removed by child services or have to leave the shelter with their guardians. The caring company believes that a person deserves access to necessities regardless of their habits.” We hope our clients will find sobriety; some do, others do not, but we do not deny services simply because of addiction” (C. Mosser, personal communication, 2023). A group of volunteers is working with rehab centers to improve recovery resources. Carolyn also told me they began working with a crisis nursery, where mothers or fathers can take their children when they feel overwhelmed. She said that she knows a few mothers have taken their babies there when they go to meetings or when they are having a rough day with cravings. So far, these opportunities are helping. Is there a mission statement or a social justice belief? Everyone deserves the right to decency and fundamental human rights. Sadly, the population(s) the Caring Company serves are often denied these rights. People living in poverty are treated differently. People assume they are uneducated or lazy, living off the taxpayers. More often than not, this is not the case. The organization sees veterans who have mental illness, single mothers who lost their only income, or men who are on disability. Their clients are just like anyone else, just down on their luck.

CULTURAL IMMERSION INTERVIEW 5 One organization cannot fix the problems of the world. They hope to raise awareness and make York City better. The organization treats anyone who steps into the office with respect and dignity. They teach all volunteers multicultural awareness and are well-versed in offensive behaviors. While the Caring company is incredibly accepting, it will not tolerate discrimination or judgment from anyone. This includes clients, volunteers, donors, and advertisers. Carolyn says they love their brothers and sisters in Christ, whether they choose to believe” (C. Mosser, personal communication, 2023). Interview with Leigh and Aslyn (A same-sex homeless couple) The backgrounds of Aslyn and Leigh Leigh is from Harrisburg, and Aslyn is from York. Both cities are in southeastern Pennsylvania. The couple met in a treatment center in Lancaster, PA, White Deer Run. Leigh, who was raised in a single-parent household, has been experiencing homelessness on and off since the age of five. Aslyn was the opposite; she grew up in a two-parent household in a middle- to-upper-class family. Aslyn turned twenty in July, and Leigh celebrated her twentieth birthday at the end of September. Leigh has experienced abuse, both physical and sexual, for as long as she can remember. Her mother was a sex worker who also abused drugs, and Leigh was often the currency. In high school, a gang trafficked Aslyn, but her family got her back. She did not stay with them long, as they found out that she was a lesbian. Both girls became addicted to heroin and other opiates, which led to their meeting at the White Deer Run Rehabilitation Center. Leigh arrived first but had no intention of staying the recommended ninety days. The staff admitted Aslyn a week later. On a sweltering morning in August, Leigh told the technicians she was not going on the daily

CULTURAL IMMERSION INTERVIEW 6 nature walk. The technician decided this was insubordination and told her she had ten minutes to pack her stuff and leave. The girls had become very close, and Aslyn, being from York, decided she would not let Leigh go out alone. She packed her stuff as well, and both girls left treatment. The first night, the girls stayed with a sober friend. This living arrangement would not last, however, as neither Leigh nor Aslyn could stay away from drugs. The two devised a plan to get a clean urinalysis to remain in the Women’s shelter. Their plan worked for a few months until Aslyn overdosed on fentanyl-laced heroin in the shelter. The ambulance and police came. Leigh, of course, went to be with her girlfriend. The hospital discharged Aslyn the next day, even though she had nowhere to go. The first night, they walked around York City, not sleeping. Other nights, they slept under an old bridge in the inner city, or they slept under the overpass of the highway. At this point in the interview, Aslyn asked if she could have a minute to smoke. Leigh and I were alone, and that’s when she told me that after they trafficked Aslyn, she vowed never to be with another man. Leigh said it was her fault that she got Aslyn involved in “tricking” or prostitution with men again. Aslyn returned and shared that both girls were waiting for beds in different rehab centers. Waiting for a bed in a rehab center could take months, which scares both girls. The couple acknowledged there was a high probability they would overdose before a bed became available. Leigh has overdosed twenty-one times since she started heroin, and Aslyn nine times. What were the couples’ experience with the local organizations? Aslyn told me they had tried to get help through the welfare office, but since they had no children, it seemed pointless. Welfare offered emergency food stamps, forty for each girl, but they said it doesn’t stretch very far. The girls showed me a list of all the resources they had found

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CULTURAL IMMERSION INTERVIEW 7 online or through others in the homeless community. Leigh told me they did not qualify and had tried all twenty places on the list. Some Christian organizations won’t assist because of their sexual orientation, and others won’t assist because the couple is young, female, and without children. I asked about the Caring Company, which I interviewed earlier, and the girls smiled. They agreed everyone is kind there, but their shelter and homeless outreach is still in the works. I asked at this point if they felt that their active use of drugs hindered their prospects for help. Neither girl denied this, and Leigh said it is probably the number one reason. How they view spirituality and the feelings they have around Christmas as a child When I asked the girls if they believed in a higher power, they both laughed. I explained my background as a recovering opiate addict and told the girls that nothing they could say to me was something I had not heard before. Leigh spoke first and talked about how God was never a crucial part of her life. She believes that if there is a higher power, then he has not been paying attention to her. Aslyn, unlike Leigh, grew up in a very religious home. She attended a catholic school and took part in bible studies five nights a week. They devoted Sundays to church, family, and prayer. Aslyn says she still believes in a higher power but does not know who or what that comprises. She no longer prays because she believes it is pointless, but maybe one day that will change. Leigh was excited to tell me that her best memories were of Christmas when she was young. Even though her mother was in active addiction, that was the one day a year when she tried to make the day special. Every year until Leigh was sixteen, they would open the two or three presents they could afford and then spend the day playing board games. When they were homeless and lived in their car, they would spend the day driving around, looking at lights, and ordering Chinese food.

CULTURAL IMMERSION INTERVIEW 8 Aslyn said she hated Christmas. Conversation among her friends was always the presents, their tree, and the fun they had during break. Her family did not believe in gifts or spoiling anyone, as it was Jesus’s birthday. Her parents said it was to be spent in church and prayer only. I was preparing to move on with the interview when Leigh remembered something she wanted to tell me. She said that at one point; she believed in God before her grandmother died. At only seven years old, and she remembered praying to God to keep her grandmother healthy. Leigh’s mother and her grandmother had a strained relationship for years. When Leigh was five, she finally met her grandmother, and they became close. She would spend a night or two there when her mom allowed it, and she said it was the safest she had ever felt. At some point, Leigh was going to live with her grandmother full time, but she got extremely sick fast. This is when Leigh started praying. Her grandmother died shortly after she fell ill, and it devastated Leigh. “The only time I ever asked, no begged, I begged God to save my grandmother, but really I wanted him to save me” (Leigh, personal communication, October 18, 2023). The prejudices and discrimination the couple faced Both girls have experienced discrimination. Aslyn told me, “We get it all the time, but I promise you it isn’t for the reasons you think (Aslyn, personal communication, October 18, 2023). She explained people discriminate against her as a pretty, young, naïve, homeless female. Other homeless people take advantage of her, while the rest of society looks at her like trash. She believes where she comes from has much to do with how people see her. “No one understands why I cannot just go home. Why can’t I pretend to be something I am not until I get my life together? They do not know my family; they do not know what I have been through; I would die before I go home” (Aslyn, personal communication, October 18, 2023).

CULTURAL IMMERSION INTERVIEW 9 Leigh says she is used to being judged and hated. To her, it is something that has happened her whole life, and it is no big deal. “People call the police on us if we are pan- handling, girls are age laugh and point. Even other homeless people do not take us seriously sometimes. ‘We fit in nowhere’” (Leigh, personal communication, October 18, 2023). Leigh talked about school and how kids always called her poor and gross. They called her mom horrible names and said Leigh would grow up to be just like her. “I guess they were right then” (Leigh, personal communication, October 18, 2023). The couple divulged many of the disgusting, upsetting, and grotesque comments people have made towards them.. It affected Aslyn deeply. Leigh seemed to be less affected. What did I end up learning from this interview? Much of what the girls told me was not new; I had heard and seen much of the same in Tent City. I will admit that the discrimination they receive from the homeless population surprised me. Both girls feel that because they are young and female, many chronic homeless people do not respect them. Many of the older women are rude or ignore them completely. The men either make advances or treat them as less than human. I expected prejudices from society but not from the homeless culture. What I saw at Tent City was a population of people down on their luck who stuck together. The old looked out for the young, and the young helped the old. It was a system that worked. Second, I never thought about LGTBQ discrimination in homelessness. I researched the statistics when I got home and found an interesting article. The article stated that the LGTBQ population experiences homelessness at a 120% increase than the general population (Kovalick, 2022). Discrimination is common for LGBTQ homeless youth when they seek services, as mentioned in

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CULTURAL IMMERSION INTERVIEW 10 the article (Kovalick, 2022). Others report assault and abuse from peers based on their sexual orientation (Kovalick, 2022). What was my reaction to the interview? I was heartbroken, absolutely torn apart inside, listening to these girls speak. I say girls because, at twenty, they are barely adults, but the two of them have experienced more pain than most people I know in their fifties and sixties. It was tough for me to hear about Leigh’s childhood and how her mother used her as currency for her drug habit. Aslyn spoke about being trafficked and asked if I would only mention it briefly for the paper, but she shared her experience with me. After returning home, she tried to be honest and open with her parents about her feelings, yet they kicked her out when she said she would never be with a man again. With nothing to their name besides some clothes, shoes, and a tent, the two find comfort and home with each other. I wanted to cry with them when they spoke of not belonging anywhere and hug them when they said that even when surrounded by other homeless people; they feel alone. No one can imagine just how hard living like this is. The heat in the summer, the freezing temperatures in the winter. Three to five hours of sleep a night, while one stays up and watches to ensure no one attacks them. Imagine going to the organizations that promise to help only to be told no because of your sexual orientation. The welfare office could not help them because they were not parents; no, they were children themselves! Aslyn and Leigh seem to hit roadblocks at every turn.

CULTURAL IMMERSION INTERVIEW 11 How could I implement the concept of Gracism? While talking with the couple, the first thing that came to mind was “Everyone has a dot” (Anderson, 2007, p.12). I wondered if this was happening with Aslyn and Leigh. They are young, abused, and insecure about life; is it the discrimination and rejection they feel magnified by their insecurities? I quickly pushed the thought out because it was an unfair assumption. Even if they amplify prejudice from their insecurities, I am not the person to reconcile that. It is not for me to decide or assume what another person’s feelings of prejudice are. The second thought I had was “I will consider you” (Anderson, 2007, p. 107). In his book, Anderson tells the parable of the good Samaritan and how two religious leaders walked past a man in need. A third man, racially mixed, walks by but takes pity on the man. He bandaged him, cleaned him, and cared for him (Anderson, 2007, p. 107). Anderson (2007) asks, “What is our heart like? Is it a heart that seeks to avoid those in need or engages the problem as an opportunity to love” (p. 108)? How many people have walked past this young, vulnerable, clearly suffering couple and laughed? The organizations that claim to care yet deny based on a person’s sexual orientation are just as guilty. Government agencies decide who to help, hiding behind the criteria factor when their faces say otherwise. This interview, this entire immersion experience, has shown me how to consider them. I will consider them when I see them on my daily travels. When I have money to spare, I will consider them. I will consider them when I call coworkers in rehabs and programs begging for a spot for this couple. The act of Gracism is “I will heal with you” (Anderson, 2007, p. 136). Anderson (2007) argues that, as a gracist,’ it is crucial to acknowledge and seek to understand others, even if we disagree with them’ (p.137). As a recovering addict myself, I know firsthand the pain and

CULTURAL IMMERSION INTERVIEW 12 suffering they feel. By the grace of God, I have never had to experience homelessness. Gracism means offering support even when we can’t fully understand someone’s struggles. (Anderson, 2007, p. 144). I wanted to take the girl’s home, feed them, comfort them, and shelter them. So badly I wanted to be a maternal influence, a positive role model, and a shoulder to cry on. “I will heal with you” (Anderson, 2007, p. 136) means: “I will walk with you through your pain. I will listen, learn, experience, and imagine the hurt that you must be feeling. I will walk with you on the path of healing and share in the burdens of carrying your cross alongside you. If I can feel with you, then I can heal with you” (Anderson, 2007, p. 144). Summary Comparing and contrasting the research and interviews Women experiencing homelessness often face neglect, poverty, and parental mental health issues from a young age (Bennet et al., 2010). Many women develop harmful behaviors because of challenging childhoods, which further perpetuate poverty. Homeless women often face substance abuse, low self-esteem, mood disorders, anxiety, and even psychosis (Bennet et al., 2010). This was the first parallel between my research and the interview that caught my attention. Leigh’s mother had both mental health and substance abuse issues. She also faced neglect and poverty. Poverty and substance abuse were absent from Aslyn’s childhood home, but neglect and parental mental health were concerns. Both girls have perpetuated the cycle by struggling with substance abuse, depression, low self-esteem, and anxiety, which supports the findings of Bennet et al. (2010). The study and interview identified a homeless hierarchy that challenges conventional ideas of power. Leigh and Aslyn are open about their status in the homeless community. The

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CULTURAL IMMERSION INTERVIEW 13 homeless community views them as weak and spoiled. They struggle to form connections with other people in their population. Both of them have been through significant trauma, but neither has experienced chronic homelessness. The final parallel between my research and the interview was the influence (or lack of) spirituality in the homeless population. Lu et al. (2021) explain that the “homeless have these views challenged and often question life’s purpose. Daily struggles with existential questions occur, and their situation shakes their faith in a higher power” (para. 38). Sadly, this was glaringly clear in the girl’s case. Aslyn lost faith and feels anxious and lost. Leigh believes that when she reached out to God, he ignored her. This caused her to stop believing in any higher power, and she now feels life is painful and a daily struggle. One aspect of my research I am now questioning is the effective treatment measures. As a recovering addict myself, I believe one should prioritize sobriety above everything else in life. There is a common belief in recovery that everything you put before sobriety is something you will end up losing. Leigh and Aslyn caused me to not only question the research, but my personal beliefs. When we discussed the organizations, Leigh mentioned how a long-term stable home would have solved many of their problems. When I asked her to clarify, she told me she uses drugs as an escape from her life. This is typical of people with an addiction. What is not typical is what she said next. “If my mother had a home, she would not have sold herself. She was clean for years when she was with my grandmother. It was not until they had a falling out and my mom had nowhere to go that she went back to sex work. Her work made her hate herself, which kept her in addiction” (Leigh, personal communication, October 18, 2023). Leigh believed the same applied to their current situation. If the girls could find a home, they could access medication-assisted treatment or MAT. Without a fixed address, they could not receive state

CULTURAL IMMERSION INTERVIEW 14 insurance. Without insurance, medication assisted treatment can cost between $150 and $230, depending on the facility. Opiate withdrawal is physically painful, with upset stomach, flu-like symptoms, restlessness, exhaustion and cramping. The withdrawal mentally is even worse, which is why treatment coupled with medication is so effective. The research stressed that housing interventions did not lead to a reduction in drug use (Miler et al., 2021). What I believed to be an unsuccessful intervention in helping people experiencing homelessness may be one of the most essential. What about the interviewed surprised me the most? Foremost, I was stunned by the prejudice and discrimination the girls received. Both Aslyn and Leigh are Caucasian females. They are gorgeous and young, and I would not have been able to tell they were homeless by looking alone. They lacked some prominent details, such as sunken faces, malnourishment, dark circles, and bruising. Their hair was combed, and Aslyn wore makeup. They looked like a typical same-sex twenty-year-old couple. The people I met in Tent City had noticeable scars 1 and were underweight. The Tent City population were disheveled and had no access to a shower or laundry facilities. Aslyn mentioned they were allowed to use their dealer’s bathroom and laundry as long as they repaid him, stressing it was not a monetary value. This leads me to the second most surprising aspect. Aslyn and Leigh were in a committed same- sex relationship. Leigh had never been in a relationship with a man, and Aslyn had not been in one for five years. They did, however, work in the sex industry with only men. According to Leigh, engaging in sexual activities with a woman other than their partner would be considered unfaithful, whereas being with men was acceptable. 1 Track marks are the area of scarring that occurs when an IV drug user continues to inject in one spot. This causes a build up of Scar tissue. Aslyn and Leigh also had marks, but both were long sleeves due to the temperature which is why I did not notice.

CULTURAL IMMERSION INTERVIEW 15 Personally, even at my lowest point, in addition, I never had to consider selling myself. How could these two young, intelligent, and resourceful girls use prostitution as their primary source of income? When I gained enough courage to ask them this question, Aslyn’s response made me cry. She told me how her body was the only thing she ever had to offer. Being homeless has cost her so much: her self-worth, her dignity, her stability, and her happiness. She only had her physical self to leverage. How has this experience changed me? By the grace of God, there goes I. Anyone could become an individual I worked with for this paper. Bobby and his family lost everything due to COVID-19. Stories like his have resounded throughout the country. There were no drugs or crimes that brought his family to Tent City. While drugs are prevalent in the homeless circle, it is not the only reason for their situation. Every day now, I wake up, I thank God that I have a home for my children, food for their bellies, and a loving and supportive family. I will never again complain that I do not have enough money or cannot afford a luxury. When I was young, I went on mission trips with my father. The depressing and poverty-stricken conditions of people in third-world countries impacted me. Truth being, I never had to leave my hometown to experience the same emotions. This experience has also strengthened my faith. As a recently born-again Christian, I realized how deeply I needed this immersion. James 2: 15-17 says “If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is this? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead” ( The Holy Bible: New International Version Containing the Old Testament and the New Testament. , 2009). I can label myself as a Christian, a moral, kind, and

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CULTURAL IMMERSION INTERVIEW 16 righteous person, but without implementation, my faith is dead. This led me to my last realization. Having faith is not implementing faith, thus I want to become more involved in the community. Working at shelters and soup kitchens is a start, but I want to influence change. I will be attending town halls, writing politicians, and using my privilege to help those who cannot help themselves. This experience has solidified my career goals. When I graduate, I want to get my doctorate and work with veterans suffering from addiction and post-traumatic stress disorder. I do not want to get rich from a Ph.D.; I want to save lives and make people feel worthy of love, compassion, and understanding. How will I apply what I learned? I will never again tell someone that I understand how they feel unless I have been exactly where they are. I thought that by being an addict, I would have a leg up on how they felt, acted, lived, and their experiences. Not just with the homeless culture, any culture, unless you are immersed in it, you cannot understand it completely. A counselor’s job is to be understanding and helpful and act as a tool to help others reach their better selves. If I attempt to understand and compare everyone I meet to my own experiences, I will never grasp what multicultural psychology is. From this point on, I will never base an assumption on looks alone. Some cultures rarely smile, while others are over-affectionate. I used to think appearances could reveal someone’s feelings and lifestyle, but I was wrong. People are skilled at hiding the bad and emphasizing the good in life. Emotional cues vary by culture, and I need to remember this when working with different backgrounds. The last thing that I will be cognizant of is my sarcasm and humor, which is not something I expected to discover. I have a dry, very sarcastic sense of humor. While this is one of my best

CULTURAL IMMERSION INTERVIEW 17 traits, it is one of the worst for cultural and emotional sensitivity. No one said anything directly, but I could tell that everyone did not enjoy my humor. According to Jiang et al. (2019),” Understanding how culture influences humor perception, humor usage, and humor’s implications for psychological well-being is of great importance. Humor has significant consequences for human psychological well-being “(Para. 2) The last thing I would ever want is my coping mechanism to hurt another person. This entire experience has shown me that society rarely thinks of others in their day-to-day life. When we see someone holding a homeless sign, it is only then that a pang of guilt strikes us. Only when the commercials come on for wounded veterans do people remember our soldiers. I refuse to forget what I have experienced; I pray that instead; I use this as a constant reminder of why I am starting my counseling journey. Conclusion Terence Lester is a minister, activist, and author who founded the non-profit Love Beyond Walls. His organization promotes community mobilization and supports the homeless and impoverished. Carolyn, the women I interviewed for the Caring Company, suggested I read his book I See You: How Love Opens Our Eyes to Invisible People. The book focuses on the homeless and impoverished and how, so often, they are invisible to the rest of society. Lester (2019) tells the readers: From the comfort of our own home, it’s hard to understand the complexities of something like poverty and homelessness. To really understand something, we often need to experience it for ourselves or at least hear the story of someone who has experienced it. Jesus aims to bridge the gap and create a community of disconnected people looking for more than just a physical space to exist in. After completing my immersion experience and thoroughly reading Terence Lester’s book, I have reached a point where I feel prepared to embark on my journey as a counselor. I never expected to be affected the way I

CULTURAL IMMERSION INTERVIEW 18 was, never considered the impact that this culture would have on life. Thank you for this experience, the assignment, and the chance to truly understand what cultural understanding and respect is. In the words of Terence Lester (2019) “If you want to honor God, get to know someone unlike you (p.67)

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CULTURAL IMMERSION INTERVIEW 19 References Anderson, D. A. (2007). Gracism : the Art of Inclusion. Intervarsity Pr. Aslyn. (2023, October 18). The homeless culture (K. Sopchak, Interviewer) [Personal communication]. Jiang, T., Li, H., & Hou, Y. (2019). Cultural Differences in Humor Perception, Usage, and Implications. Fronteir Psychology , 10 (3). https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2019.00123 Kovalick, C. (2022). LGBTQ+ Youth Homelessness . National Network for Youth. https://nn4youth.org/lgbtq-homeless-youth/ Leigh. (2023, October 18). The homless culture (K. Sopchak, Interviewer) [Personal communication]. Lester, T. (2019). I see you : how love opens our eyes to invisible people . Ivp, An Imprint Of Intervarsity Press. Mosser, C. (2023). Caring Company (K. Sopchak, Interviewer) [Personal communication]. The holy Bible : New International Version containing the Old Testament and the New Testament. (2009). Zondervan.

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