Transcript of _America Has A Problem_

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Oct 30, 2023

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Wesley Morris J. J Wortham What’s up? Wesley Morris I was at a party last month and this song came on. Music (Kanye West And Jamie Foxx, "Gold Digger") She take my money — Wesley Morris And, you know, normally — Music (Kanye West And Jamie Foxx, "Gold Digger") — when I’m in need. Wesley Morris — my first impulse with this song was to just get my eagle on. Music (Kanye West And Jamie Foxx, "Gold Digger") Uh, she give me money. I ain’t saying she a golddigger. Wesley Morris But I really did not understand how the DJ didn’t get the memo.

J Wortham Mm. Wesley Morris So I just stood there on the dance floor not dancing. J Wortham What did you want to happen? Wesley Morris I just wanted to not have to think about him. J Wortham Right. Wesley Morris You just wanted to enjoy the night. J Wortham That’s all I wanted. Yeah, I just wanted to enjoy the night. This was me just like running out of runway to let this person’s ideology fly, if we can even call it an ideology. But mostly what I was feeling out there on the dance floor was just like another occasion for me to sit in my Blackness and figure out what that is all about.

It’s tough, right? It’s really frustrating and it’s difficult to try to figure out our relationship to someone we don’t even know — Wesley Morris Yeah, yes. J Wortham — but whose work we’ve had a relationship to for decades. So thinking about divesting from that is — Wesley Morris It’s painful. J Wortham It’s not a small thing. Wesley Morris No, it’s huge. And it’s so huge that I — I have to be done. J Wortham Mm-hm. Wesley Morris Now when I say done, I don’t mean I’m going to come after people who play the music in my presence. I just think that I, Wesley Morris, am done trying to make a kind of intellectual sense —

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J Wortham Yeah. Wesley Morris — of the artist formerly known as Kanye West who now goes by Ye. J Wortham Mm-hm. Wesley Morris I just, it’s — we’re in deeply vile territory. And I can’t make intellectual sense of that. J Wortham I’m where you’re at. I’m past the point of sadness. Wesley Morris Yes, yes. J Wortham I’m into a place of rage, discomfort. And, historically speaking, there has been a lot of grace for Ye, right, probably more than he actually deserved. And I’m thinking about choosing to associate with Donald Trump and going to Trump Tower. You know, there has been mounting misogyny, mounting sexism that got overlooked, right, got a pass because the music was so good. Now we’re reaching a point where all that’s compounding.

The list is very long, includes the White Lives Matter shirt, Paris Fashion Week, this abhorrent interview he gives most recently on Alex Jones’s show. I’m not going to repeat what he said because it’s way too vile. There’s no redemption. There’s no accountability. Every single time this person is given a chance, including being allowed back on Twitter — Wesley Morris They just double down. J Wortham You and I have talked about Kanye many, many, many times over the course of the show. The last time we tried to untangle this topic together, we decided together we were not going to give up on Kanye, that we were invested in him and his project and his mission and curious about it. A day has arrived where how we feel is different. Wesley Morris Yeah. J Wortham So let’s get into it. Let’s talk about it and also just notice how the atmosphere in this room has changed. Wesley Morris [CHUCKLING]: Yeah.

J Wortham It’s always a party in the studio. Wesley Morris Yeah. J Wortham Today it’s funereal. Let’s talk about why. [Theme Music] J Wortham I’m J Wortham. Wesley Morris I’m Wesley Morris. And we’re two cultural undertakers at The New York Times. J Wortham And this is Still Processing. [Theme Music] Wesley Morris Can we go back to 2004? J Wortham Take me there.

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Wesley Morris 2004, “The College Dropout” comes out. And I was really feeling like, here was a person I had kind of been waiting for. J Wortham Wow. Wesley Morris This guy was iconoclastic in his insistence that there are rules that you don’t have to follow to become a successful Black person. J Wortham Wow. Wesley Morris He drops out of college the year I graduate. And one of the things we get taught as a people is that one of the things that really helps us succeed is going to get a college degree. And there was something about its mocking insistence that it’s the wrong way to go. There’s a whole sketch — Music (Kanye West, "Lil Jimmy Skit") My dad died. And he left me his degrees. Wesley Morris

— where the narrator of this little interlude is basically talking about a story where his father collects degrees, essentially. Music (Kanye West, "Lil Jimmy Skit") My mom would always say, “Dad, why don’t you work?” But he just kept learning. Wesley Morris You know, he wasn’t a good father as a result, had all these degrees. Music (Kanye West, "Lil Jimmy Skit") He was so greedy with degrees, he took my degree. Wesley Morris But I just kind of sat there and was like, for a lot of us, this is a way out, getting a college education. J Wortham It feels important to know that at this exact same moment in time, another college dropout is releasing something that will also disrupt notions of productivity and genius and — Wesley Morris Oh yeah. J Wortham

— you know, introduce an entirely new paradigm, which is Mark Zuckerberg, famous college dropout, launches thefacebook.com. And I just bring that up to say that album for me also challenged the idea that the other means of success was to somehow figure out how to be a really savvy college dropout who created a multimillion dollar app that then skyrockets you to stardom and success. Because that was the pressure for my generation at that time, right? It was this idea of we are at the forefront of a brand new technological revolution. And if you can’t figure it out, you’re going to be left behind. And Kanye college dropout just also offered a way to say, unsubscribe. Maybe I don’t want that either. Wesley Morris But the way I received aspects of the college dropout album was that he was essentially challenging what I can only describe as a Black orthodoxy that points to middle class Black success as looking a particular way. I didn’t have a problem with that. That wasn’t an — it didn’t feel like an orthodoxy to me. But the way that Kanye West was thinking about it, it was. J Wortham What I found so moving about Kanye’s alternativeness is that he was still a scholar. And instead of someone presenting papers or dissertations, what he was doing was he was presenting lineage through music, right, through sampling. You know, part of Kanye’s early success resides entirely in his uncanny and genius-like ability to beat match —

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Music (Jay-Z, "Izzo") H to the izz-O. V to the izz-A. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to the eighth wonder of the world. J Wortham — and pull tiny snippets and choruses and parts of songs — Music (Kanye West, "Blood On The Leaves") Blood on the leaves. I just need to clear my mind now. J Wortham — and step on them, screw them, smash them — Music (Kanye West, "Blood On The Leaves") Through the fire, to the limit, to the wire. I spit it through the wire, young man. J Wortham — so they sound completely different and also extremely familiar. And some people call that production. But I also call that archive work because what you’re doing — Wesley Morris Yeah, of course. J Wortham

— is pulling from the past to make something new for the future. It’s a way of honoring your musical lineage. It’s a way of honoring your musical ancestors, giving them their flowers in real time. And a key example of that craftsmanship shines on “All Falls Down —” Music (Kanye West, "All Falls Down") When it all, when it all falls down. This is the real one, baby. I’m telling you all, when it all falls down. Southside, Southside. J Wortham — which is pulled from Lauryn Hill’s devastatingly iconic “Unplugged” 2002 MTV live performance. Music (Lauryn Hill, "Mystery Of Iniquity") When it all, all falls down, yeah. Telling you all — J Wortham And she’s really talking about the corrosiveness of fame, the music industry, sexism. By the way, Kanye she didn’t get permission to use the original sample. But he ends up bringing a Chicago singer in, Syleena Johnson, to sing the hooks that he uses. So it’s an interpretation of Lauryn Hill’s album. But that’s a way of, again, referencing an artist that at that time a lot of people weren’t thinking about. Wesley Morris Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

Music (Kanye West, "Heard 'Em Say") West, Mr. West. Uh, yeah, uh, yeah. J Wortham I’m also thinking of a song like “Heard ‘Em Say,” which includes this just incredibly delicate and lacey piano work. Music (Kanye West, "Heard 'Em Say") Yeah, and I heard ‘em say, nothing’s ever promised tomorrow today. J Wortham That’s a sample from a Natalie Cole song. Music (Natalie Cole, "Someone That I Used To Love") Though your someone in this world that I’ll always choose to love. J Wortham His work with sampling and production was really, really, really validating to think about musical artistry and deep archival knowledge as being just as important as anything else you might study in college. And the music was fun. It was fun to listen to. And what was really exciting about that was that the art seemed free. The person who made the art seemed free. The sort of personal freedom to be whoever Kanye West the individual is and if that happens to lead to thinking in a way that isn’t like other Black

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people, most Black people, then so be it. He was the latest Black American artist to find a way to express, in his own way, what freedom could sound like. Listening to Kanye at least gave me hope that someone is thinking about another way. So to have someone like Kanye come out very boldly and exuberantly and to say, I’m creating my own politic, it has nothing to do with what the Huxtables were up to. Because that’s what we’re really also talking about here right now, which is a Black paradigm that had been set up and created by the Huxtables. And here’s someone else saying, I don’t know. I think there’s another way. Archived Recording (Kanye West) Those are my people down there. So anybody out there that wants to do anything that we can help with — Wesley Morris This is also the period where he goes on that Hurricane Katrina telethon — Archived Recording (Mike Myers) There’s now over 25 feet of water where there was one city streets — Wesley Morris — and stands next to Mike Myers and says — Archived Recording (Kanye West) George Bush doesn’t care about Black people.

Wesley Morris He looked terrified when he did it. And that moment made him a folk hero, essentially. He was expressing feelings that a lot of Black people in this country felt about the president at that time. And after these first three albums, the next three, “808s and Heartbreak” and “My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy” and “Yeezus” have some of that vulnerability to me. Like he is — he’s risking something here in terms of how big he wants to make his ego, how small he wants to make it. I think those are three albums that are about a person wrestling with something else. There is during this, what I would describe as a vulnerability period, this turn into darkness, into grimness. And the whole time, one of the thrills of these albums is that as a listener, you’re kind of like — your hand is near the panic button, even as the music is kind of blowing your mind. J Wortham It seemed like for Kanye during this time that as he became more successful, the initial disruption that he created, right, and the freedom that allowed him perhaps was starting to trap him, right? I’m thinking really specifically about that 2013 Zane Lowe interview — Wesley Morris Oh. J Wortham — where he’s asked about the song on “Yeezus” titled “I Am a God.”

Music (Kanye West, "I Am A God") I am a god. J Wortham It’s a very fast-paced aggressive song — Music (Kanye West, "I Am A God") I am a god. J Wortham — that just felt like an exorcism of some kind. And I honestly didn’t really grapple with the lyrics too much. And then you have him in this interview where he’s like — Archived Recording (Kanye West) Everybody says, who does he think he is? I just told you who I thought I was, a god. J Wortham And that part of the interview is always excerpted as an example of this turn you’re describing where we’re seeing an artist who’s wrestling with inner demons that aren’t yet fully outside of themselves in a way. Like it’s very internal conflict. But that interview goes on. And what he says next is so illuminating. He’s like — Archived Recording (Kanye West)

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Would it have been better if I had a song that said, “I’m a gangster,” or if I had a song to say, “I am a pimp.” J Wortham Because society is a lot more comfortable with me describing myself in those terms. But when I say I’m a god, that’s when people have a problem. But there is this sense of someone who feels like they’re not being recognized for how great they are. And that’s a really different approach than early Kanye, which is talking about, I don’t care what you think about me. I’m going to carve a new path. I’m going to blaze a new way. Follow me if you want, whatever. And this Kanye is saying, you do not recognize me for how great I am. And there’s a marked difference there. Wesley Morris Yeah. And he goes on tour, “The Life of Pablo” tour. It’s 2016. And he’s giving these erratic speeches from the stage. And there’s a horrible assault, robbery incident involving Kim Kardashian. And during the tour, he is hospitalized with exhaustion. And the first thing that he does when he gets out of the hospital — Archived Recording Kanye, what are you doing here today?

Wesley Morris — is go to Trump Tower. Archived Recording Kanye, what are you guys going to be talking about? Wesley Morris And it wasn’t just that he goes to Trump Tower a month after the election. He goes blond, a hair color that basically matches Donald Trump’s. Archived Recording (Donald Trump) Just friends. Just friends. And he’s a good man. Wesley Morris And the press is trying to ask Ye questions. And he doesn’t answer. Ye just stands there. J Wortham Hm. Archived Recording 1 President Elect of the United States, nothing to say? Archived Recording 2 I just want to take a picture right now.

Wesley Morris And that was the beginning of some kind of change. Like, I mean, it was not the beginning. That was the culmination, to me, of an evolution toward something that felt unsavory and potentially dangerous. J Wortham All the things you’re describing, Wesley, is actually why I decided to go see “Saint Pablo,” right, the tour for “The Life of Pablo.” Because that album was so confounding to me, right? You have a song like “Ultralight Beam,” which is kind of about redemption. You’ve got Kirk Franklin — Music (Kanye West, "Ultralight Beam") Father, this prayer is for everyone that feels they’re not good enough. J Wortham — the expert on Black redemption community and gospel singing this song with Chance about new beginnings and hope and optimism. Music (Kanye West, "Ultralight Beam") We on an ultralight beam. We on a ultralight beam. This is a God dream. J Wortham And that song goes right into “Father Stretch My Hands Pt. 1.” [Music (Kanye West, "'Father Stretch My Hands")^ Beautiful morning, you’re the sun in my morning, babe.

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J Wortham And then he starts talking about — And if I fuck this model, she just bleached her asshole — — which I don’t have moral judgment around, but in the context of the key changes of this song is really befuddling. So with all this in mind, me in good faith get a ticket, go to “Saint Pablo” concert. I think I went by myself. And I was struck by a few things. One, the entire concert pretty much was attended by white people. There was something interesting there. The stage mechanics of that performance, Kanye was suspended on a platform that was shrouded in light, so much so that you couldn’t see the audience. Like, I mean, this is always true of a concert, right? The performer is highlighted. But usually, there are these roving spotlights on the crowd so you can see everyone else in their state of ecstasy and you’re getting giddy off of their giddiness. And with Kanye, there really wasn’t any interest in being able to see the audience. All eyes were on Kanye. And the platform was careening around the arena. Wesley Morris Yeah, it was cantilevered.

J Wortham And so the people below it were shrouded in darkness. So you could only just see this teeming mass of Kanye’s acolytes, essentially, reaching their hands up. I mean, it looked like a Caravaggio painting or something. It had very gothic elements to it. Wesley Morris I’d say Bosch, Hieronymus Bosch. J Wortham It just felt really clear that Kanye’s self-rendering was completely transformed and that where he was, we weren’t meant to access. Wesley Morris One of the things that you and I have been thinking about together, in our work separately is, what does ultimate absolute freedom for Black people in this country look like? One of the things that seemed like Ye was trying to show us was maybe it does look like voting for Republicans if you are conservative. You should be free enough to do that. Why shouldn’t you be able to go on Twitter and with a MAGA hat on? And I don’t see, why shouldn’t I be able to do this? Because I’m me. I’m not representing Black people. I’m representing me, Ye. J Wortham OK, but, well, I don’t think that’s freedom. It’s not an expansive idea. It’s not an idea that’s actually imagining something new. And I’m drawing a lot of my

thinking from a book that has really been moving me in my own research from my projects called “The Long Emancipation” by Rinaldo Walcott, which is trying to help us distinguish between ideas of emancipation and freedom. Wesley Morris Yeah. J Wortham His point is that emancipation served as a way to think about not slavery. Wesley Morris Yes, yes, right. J Wortham But it wasn’t freedom, right? Because the newly-emancipated Black people in this country still had a ton — I mean, we still do. But there was a ton of sociopolitical restrictions and limitations on what kind of jobs you could have, where you could live, policing on your hair, policing on your body. I mean, we have an approximation of freedom. But because we’re still in this post-slavery economy, it’s really hard to know what it would actually mean to be free. And so the book is asking us to think about being in a long period of emancipation rather than ever having approached freedom. I want that freedom for all of us. I just have a really hard time believing that a true expression of freedom comes at the expense of other people’s safety, other people’s humanities, and other people’s sense of dignity.

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Wesley Morris Well, that’s the point at which his going to Paris during Paris Fashion Week and wearing the t-shirt that says “White Lives Matter” comes in, right? Not just that “All Lives Matter.” That would have been bad enough. But he was here, they said “White Lives Matter.” Talking about like I’m going to go “Death Con 3 —” Death Con 3, D-E-A-T-H — J Wortham Right, right. Wesley Morris — Con 3 on Jewish people. For me that was the moment where, I mean, all the wheels fall off. J Wortham The wheels had been falling off the bus for a minute though, right? Wesley Morris Yes, yes, yes, yes. J Wortham It’s important to remember that Kanye has been practicing misogynoir for a really long time, songs like “Gold Digger,” right, even songs like “Flashing Lights.” You know, there’s always this narrative that just paints him as a victim to greedy Black women. And the entire narrative around Amber Rose — Wesley Morris

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Oh lord. J Wortham — in the aftermath of their relationship — Wesley Morris Yeah. J Wortham — he just painted her as this opportunistic greedy little slut. And he had to take 30 showers after he broke up with her. And that was on the radio. And everybody laughed. The culture was just like, yeah, who cares about her? Wesley Morris I’m probably as guilty as anybody. J Wortham We all are. I mean, we’re talking about this cultural complacency and our role in helping create this social monster that we have today. Wesley Morris Mm-hm. J Wortham So there had already been a lot of corrosive behavior towards a lot of vulnerable people before all of this blew up in the last handful of months.

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Wesley Morris Well, I mean, I think we should take a break. And when we come back, we should talk about exactly how blown up things are. Because whatever seemed free about this person is actually the opposite. [MUSIC] J Wortham It’s hard to really talk about where I think Kanye is at and what I think is going on with him because the truth is, I don’t know. I’m not inside that man’s brain. I’m not inside anybody’s head but my own. Wesley Morris What’s coming up for me in all of this is that this is not the first time we have been here as a people. J Wortham Mm-hm. Wesley Morris Other people have made this choice to try to challenge what we initially were calling an orthodoxy, right? But what it really is our sense of community. One of the earliest people who comes to mind is a guy named George Schuyler, wrote one of my favorite books. It’s called “Black No More,” a book that came out in 1931. And it’s basically about a scientist who creates a way for Black people to become white. And the main character undergoes this procedure turns from a Black person to a white person and becomes a bigwig in a white

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supremacist organization that’s kind of like the KKK, marries the daughter of the head Klansman, who is trying to stop this race-changing procedure for making things worse for white people. J Wortham How does the technology impact your DNA? Wesley Morris Well, funny you should ask. Because whenever in this novel a Black person who’s turned white reproduces with their new white spouse, they produce a Black baby. J Wortham Right, right, that was my question. Wesley Morris The DNA don’t lie. And that’s the point of the satire, right? But at some point, everybody’s confused about everything in this book, including, I would say, George Schuyler, who in the years after its publication becomes increasingly conservative and increasingly anti-Black. You know, he releases statements like condemning Martin Luther King as being nothing more than a huckster. And then let’s just fast forward to Clarence Thomas, who begins his intellectual life as a Black nationalist and winds up on the Supreme Court as what, as far as I can see, as its most conservative member. And he’s been on the court longer than anybody at this point. And, essentially, his jurisprudence

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amounts to casting a vote against every piece of civil rights legislation that comes to the court — racial equity, racial fairness, racial justice. And the reason to bring George Schuyler and Clarence Thomas into our conversation about Kanye West, J, is just to — how could they express their own beliefs as individual Americans? And what happens when those beliefs don’t necessarily correspond with the majority of Black Americans? Does that mean that the rest of us are sheep and that these are the free thinkers? Or are what classically gets called Uncle Toms? Because all that alleged free thinking just winds up doing more harm to people — Black people, Jews, I mean, all people. J Wortham We’ve been talking about this in terms of freedom but I wonder if it’s a question of their imaginations, right? Wesley Morris Mm. J Wortham Like the imagination is so limited. I mean, I’ve been thinking so much in our conversation about Robin G. Kelley’s book “Freedom Dreams,” where he tries to go back and chronicle what Black activists have been doing to try to imagine their ways out of the constraints that we’re in, right, that we’re trying to go someplace we’ve never been before. And new tools and tactics are required —

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Wesley Morris Yes, yes, yes. J Wortham — that true liberation really does involve the imagination. Because we can’t see what we don’t know yet. And I think that’s why I keep coming back to this idea of how limited this imagination is. To talk about violence, whether it’s against women you’ve dated, you know, people feel you’re in competition to, is so unimaginative and boring and completely uninteresting, in addition to it just being completely unacceptable. That’s what discounts Kanye for me. Wesley Morris The problem is, the closer it got to white supremacy, the less interesting the art became. As long as you’re out there trying to align a White Lives Matter t-shirt with an artistic practice, your art has run aground. Your art has run out of anything interesting or new to say. J Wortham Right. The turning point for me around Kanye though, was him lashing out at the “Vogue” editor — Wesley Morris — at around the same time — J Wortham — around the same time.

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Wesley Morris — as the White Lives Matter shirts happen. J Wortham I was watching it unfold on Instagram stories. So I was watching along with “Vogue” contributing editor Gabriella Karefa-Johnson, who was at that show in October. And, you know, she said to promote these ideas and white supremacist ideology on a fashion show and loop in Black people to also promote it, she’s saying, is a very scary and dangerous and violent thing. She was just like, this isn’t art. This isn’t good art. Wesley Morris Yeah. J Wortham And Kanye immediately singled her out. He posted a picture of her. He mocked her clothes. He mocked her shoes. Wesley Morris [GROAN] J Wortham I mean, this is someone who has millions and millions of people following him. And to direct the fire hose of that attention at this Black woman is a very scary and unsettling thing to do. And, immediately, so many people jumped to her defense. People are posting, talking about her right to express her critique and criticism as a “Vogue” editor at Fashion Week.

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That’s literally what they’re sent there to do. And what ends up happening is a meeting between all of them is arranged. And then Kanye tweets out like, we’re good now, this is my sister. Wesley Morris Yeah. J Wortham It’s just chaos. Wesley Morris I think what we’re — I mean, I think the other other thing we’re talking about is this other race of people. J Wortham What? Wesley Morris They’re called famous people. J Wortham Oh, yeah. Wesley Morris Fame is a race.

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J Wortham Yeah, it is. Wesley Morris I mean, if Black, white, those are all constructs. J Wortham This one is too. Wesley Morris So is fame. And at some point, I think famous people really think that their fame and power empowers them — J Wortham And money, you’re talking about money. Wesley Morris Money. J Wortham Like money is the thing that undergirds all this too. Wesley Morris Yes. And I think all those things entitle people to say and do whatever it is they want. Maybe Kanye isn’t Black. Maybe he’s just famous, in his mind.

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J Wortham What do you mean by that? Wesley Morris I mean that the story that it would seem that he can tell himself is that it’s the George Schuyler story. It’s the “Black No More” story. J Wortham Mm-hm. Wesley Morris I have moved over to this other side and I think it’s pretty great. Look at me. I just put a bunch of people in White Lives Matter t-shirts and sent them out at a fashion show. I mean, what Black person would think to do that? Me. J Wortham You and I arrived in strangely different places. Like the way I’m orienting myself right now is I’m trying to ask of myself different questions as a consumer, as a cultural critic, as a thinker. Like I am really trying to assess, what in me let me overlook those things for so long? And how can I pay that attention forward? Who are some of the artists, creators, thinkers, producers right now who deserve some of that energy, right? I’m thinking about Tems, FNF. I’m thinking of a ton of incredibly talented Black women artists who are coming up right now who are geniuses.

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And I’m just trying to do my own reparative work and understand how I can do better differently, right? Because I recognize that I’m part of the economy that gave Kanye permission for so long. Because I’m not going to be able to change Kanye. I can’t ask him to show up differently. I can’t even, you know, the only work I can do is really analyze my own priorities and interests and curiosities. Wesley Morris I think the thing that has brought us together to talk about this is not that it is happening or that it is news. I think the reason that, for many of us, the problem presented by this person is personal. I mean, it’s individually personal, right? Like the thing about “College Dropout” that so bothered me was that I received it as an indictment, not actually of getting an education. I received it as an indictment of getting an education with white people. He doesn’t say any of that on the album. But I went to Yale. The numbers just made it so that most of my friends were white. And one of the things that we Black people talked about a lot was what it’s going to mean to then have these relationships, these close friendships with white people. The fear I felt was that I would get to this school and get this education, but that it was going to cost me something. J Wortham Hmm, right.

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Wesley Morris And the price was going to be my Blackness. Even though I live a life among white people, there are white people in my life, there have been white people in my bed, I’ve never ever, ever felt in danger of losing my sense of who I am as a Black American person. But I’ve always worried — J Wortham Yeah. Wesley Morris — and wondered simultaneously why? Why am I not making the same choices Kanye West made? He’s got Stage IV cancer of the thing that I am a hypochondriac about. J Wortham You know what I’m thinking of right now? You know in “The Walking Dead” when they go to the CDC? This is pretty early on. It’s probably season one. Wesley Morris I bare my soul, you pull out “The Walking Dead.” J Wortham OK, but listen, hear me out, Hear, me out. Wesley Morris I’m with you.

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J Wortham Hold on. Hear me out. Wesley Morris OK. J Wortham OK. Early on in AMC’s “The Walking Dead,” someone gets the idea that, we should go to the CDC because that’s where all the answers will be. They make their way there. And they realize that the virus that turns people into zombies after they’ve been killed is in all of them, that all of them are actually already infected. There is no “the infected.” It only activates after you’re dead. And it’s a heart-crushing episode because you realize that the cure they’d been looking for doesn’t really seem to exist. And everyone at any moment has the potential to become a cannibal, to turn on themselves, really first, and then everyone else around them. So I’m listening to talk and I’m thinking about this way in which this fear that there could be something latent inside of all of us that turns us unrecognizable. And that also is related to white supremacy, you know? We all grow up in this world. It’s all in the water. And what’s between you and me and someone like Kanye is mental health issues, right, a lot of money, a lot of enabling, and a lot of self-loathing, and an economy that’s not stopping you. But, yeah, the worry that somehow we’ll lose track of ourselves, that’s a real fear. And it’s not unfounded.

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Wesley Morris The fear that I have is — what you so beautifully encapsulated as being like a latent possibility in all of us, it’s so depressing and infuriating to watch it proliferate in somebody else. J Wortham I mean, we haven’t even talked about really the fact that Kanye West is not well. And no one knows what to do about that unwellness. And it makes me think about Amy Winehouse. It makes me think about a certain era of Britney Spears’s life when someone’s spiral that feels like it’s approaching a death spiral is just tabloid fodder. There’s an attention economy, which is why people are talking about divesting from Kanye and just stopping paying attention, stop paying attention. Wesley Morris But what I’m also hearing you say is that the real freedom in this scenario is our freedom to leave him out there. J Wortham Yeah. I mean, it’s sad. It’s really, really sad. And the only power that we have as a society is just to say like, we do not tolerate this. And we don’t condone this. And that’s where we’re at with Kanye. But I do think that it’s not about leaving Kanye. It’s about leaving someone who is completely unwilling to be accountable for the harms they’re causing and that the only way to inoculate ourselves —

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Wesley Morris I was thinking about an infection. J Wortham — from it spreading is to quarantine ourselves. Wesley Morris It hurts. J Wortham It does. [MUSIC] Wesley Morris That’s our show. J Wortham “Still Processing” is produced by Elyssa Dudley with Christina Djossa and Hans Buetow. We are edited by Sarah Sarasohn and Sasha Weiss. Wesley Morris The show is mixed by Marion Lozano and recorded by Maddy Masiello. J Wortham Digital production by Mahima Chablani.

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Wesley Morris Eslah Attar is our photo editor. J Wortham Our theme music is by Kindness. It is called “World Restart” from the album “Otherness.” Wesley Morris And we are going to see you all soon. Happy new year. Merry Christmas. Happy Hanukkah. Happy Kwanzaa. J Wortham Take care of yourselves and each other. And we can’t wait to be with you again.

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