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Read All Notes in Conference: WEEK 2 Week Two Discussion Topic -- " Dead Men's Tales"(due October 18, 2008) Week Two Discussion Topic -- Discussing the Online Video" Dead Men's Tales" Please post a response to the weekly discussion topic (listed below). In the ongoing discussion this week, please remember to respond to at least 2 classmates' postings. Also feel free to expand the discussion by asking further questions about the topic to the class. For Week Two discussion, pick one of the tales shown in the video. http://www.pbs.org/saf/1203/video/watchonline.htm (note that there is a posted transcript of the video at the Scientific American Frontiers site, if you are unable to access the video) Select your favorite tale or the one you found most interesting or intriguing. Then discuss the following questions: > Why did you find the selected tale most interesting or intriguing? Or why was it your favorite? >How does the selected tale show use of forensic anthropology and work by forensic anthropologists? >Does the tale depict “medico-legal” evidence? Why or why not? >Besides forensics, what other disciplines (fields of study) are shown in the tales? Please post your responses to this discussion conference by Monday, October 18, 2008. Title: DIscussion Topic--Week 2 Author: Jerilyn Pecotte Date: Friday, 10/10/2008 22:20 EDT Body: Week Two Discussion Topic -- " Dead Men's Tales"(due October 18, 2008)  

Week Two Discussion Topic -- Discussing the Online Video" Dead Men's Tales"   Please post a response to the weekly discussion topic (listed below). In the ongoing discussion this week, please remember to respond to at least 2 classmates' postings.   Also feel free to expand the discussion by asking further questions about the topic to the class.   For Week Two discussion, pick one of the tales shown in the video. http://www.pbs.org/saf/1203/video/watchonline.htm   (note that there is a posted transcript of the video at the Scientific American Frontiers site, if you are unable to access the video)   Select your favorite tale or the one you found most interesting or intriguing. Then discuss the following questions: > Why did you find the selected tale most interesting or intriguing? Or why was it your favorite? >How does the selected tale show use of forensic anthropology and work by forensic anthropologists? >Does the tale depict “medico-legal” evidence? Why or why not? >Besides forensics, what other disciplines (fields of study) are shown in the tales?   Please post your responses to this discussion conference by Monday, October 18th, 2008.   Respond to this note Response Title: Re: DIscussion Topic--Week 2 Author: Brian Elliot Kurz Date: Saturday, 10/11/2008 13:30 EDT Body: I found the Jamestown episode to be very interesting.  As a child my parents took me to Colonial Williamsburg and I always thought it was a very interesting place.  A few years ago we went to the living history exhibit at Jamestown and I actually got to see the location of the fort in the video.  This video incorporates Archeologists, Climatologists,

Aside Title: Re: DIscussion Topic--Week 2 Author: Karen Charles Date: Thursday, 10/16/2008 20:08 EDT Body: I have never been to Jamestown Virginia but I found the tale to be very interesting. It is where America started and if the fact that Archeologists and other specialist can find evidence of where we came from is great. These clues can tell us more about what life may have been like for so many and how they were able to survive. Respond to this note Aside Title: Re: DIscussion Topic--Week 2 Author: Abby Renee King Date: Friday, 10/17/2008 11:38 EDT Body: I have never been to Jamestown but I find interesting that they would want to identify the person that was shot in the leg. I will have to visit the Fort sometime to learn more about the individual and individuals that were there. Respond to this note Response Title: Re: DIscussion Topic--Week 2 Author: Karen Charles Date: Monday, 10/13/2008 2:32 EDT Body: I found all the stories to be very interesting but I choose “A Texan Tall Tale” because I heard a lot about Wild Bill Longley in the past. I also like Western so I thought it would be a good video to look into. This tale shows the use of forensic anthropologist identifying bone and what they felt might have cause the death of the person. Medico- legal evidence was depicted in this tale because forensic anthropologist collected evidence that was located on and around the body. For example an artificial leaf and a medal were found on the bones. In addition to forensic geologist were used to excavate the soil. Respond to this note Aside Title: Re: DIscussion Topic--Week 2 Author: Brian Elliot Kurz Date: Monday, 10/13/2008 8:54 EDT Body:

I don't think the Bill Longley investigation would be considered medico-legal since there would have been more than 50 years since the death, and medico-legal indicates a period within the last 50 years. Respond to this note Aside Title: Re: DIscussion Topic--Week 2 Author: Robyn L Morrison Date: Friday, 10/17/2008 10:51 EDT Body: I have to agree with Brian. It has definitely been more then 50 years since Wild Bill Longley past so it cannot be classified as medico-legal evidence because there would no longer be anyone left to put up for trial for his dealth. Respond to this note Aside Title: Re: DIscussion Topic--Week 2 Author: Vini Smith Date: Saturday, 10/18/2008 18:28 EDT Body: Hi Karen, When the forensic geologist were brought in, did differentiate layers of earth that was dug up?  Do different types of dirt affect the decomposition or preservation of flesh? Vini Respond to this note Aside Title: Re: DIscussion Topic--Week 2 Author: Candice J Painter Date: Saturday, 10/18/2008 23:46 EDT Body: Karen, Does medico-legal evidence have to do with other objects found around the remains? I thought it only had to do with the age of the bones, specifically if they

Aside Title: Re: DIscussion Topic--Week 2 Author: Jerilyn Pecotte Date: Tuesday, 10/14/2008 23:46 EDT Body: Why does "medicolegal" refer to 50 years or less in terms of a time period? Respond to this note Aside Title: Re: DIscussion Topic--Week 2 Author: Brian Elliot Kurz Date: Wednesday, 10/15/2008 9:47 EDT Body: It was nice to see that someone is going through the effort to attempt to identify the remains of the various enlisted men under Custer's command.  I had actually seen another show that was following some archaeologists around the site and were attempting the find the final resting places of all of the members of Custer's command using ground penetrating radar.  Here in Frederick, at Mt. Olivet Cemetery there is a row of grave markers from the Civil war that is just marker after marker that has either a Confederate Flag or an American Flag with no name and nobody has been able to determine who was who.   Respond to this note Aside Title: Re: DIscussion Topic--Week 2 Author: Robyn L Morrison Date: Friday, 10/17/2008 10:44 EDT Body: From the power point is states that if the skelton is more then 50 years old, it would not be investigated by forensic anthropologist but instead by archaeologists or paleoanthropologist. There would be no need for a criminal investigation because more then likely all parties involved would be dead as well. Respond to this note Aside Title: Re: DIscussion Topic--Week 2 Author: Abby Renee King

Date: Friday, 10/17/2008 11:28 EDT Body: I find that the gold fillings found on George Lill was amazing that they could trace his identification to only a few dental schools that actually did that fillings during that time period. It's interesting that his teeth were well taken care of even though dental care was not of great importance in the 1800's. Respond to this note Response Title: Re: DIscussion Topic--Week 2 Author: Rhonda L Potter Date: Wednesday, 10/15/2008 13:20 EDT Body: The video that I selected was about the City of God located in Thumela which is a Southern African village. I found the tale both intriguing and interesting because it was a living chronicle of the history of a people. The video discussed the process of excavation and some of the finds and what they ultimately meant to the Venda people. For instance, the first remains of an African royal couple was excavated. This is most significant for two reasons (1) African culture doesn’t normally allow the disturbance of a grave site. It is considered disrespectful to disturb the grave of the dead. However in this instance, a compromise was made and the excavation was allowed based on the pact that the remains would be provided the proper burial afterward. (2) African culture is extremely respectful of its ancestors. They believe that communication with the ancestors is their access to God. The tale shows us that forensic anthropology is skillful work that is not just about excavation and remains. It includes knowledge of the culture for which you are excavating and the importance of being respectful to traditions, beliefs, and cultures in those areas where work is being completed. I believe that the tales validate the work of forensic anthropologists because it shows the importance of learning about history in the world during periods centuries before our own and the results of the finds provide tremendous knowledge and information to the people in the area where the excavation is taking place and to the world at large because it provides facts where there is sometimes myths and falsehoods. In this instance it validated the existence of many of the Venda people because their 16 th century royal couple was excavated. Other than forensics, I think that the other fields of study that were shown in the tale were History, Communication, and Sociology.

the exumation of bodies for a criminal investigation is not allowed either? Vini Respond to this note Aside Title: Re: DIscussion Topic--Week 2 Author: Rhonda L Potter Date: Sunday, 10/19/2008 13:47 EDT Body: I would think that because it is considered disrespectful to disturb a grave they wouldn't allow excavation of a grave for criminal investigation purposes either.  I also think that their are other faith's that are against this also. Respond to this note Aside Title: Re: DIscussion Topic--Week 2 to Diana Author: Barbara J Jordan Date: Sunday, 10/19/2008 16:19 EDT Body: Hi, I think that the floor above her may have caved in due to the water drainage in the area of the grave especially after such a long period of time. I truly enjoyed this video. I thought that the king was particularly impressive in his quiet, stately expressions. I also thought that it was interesting that the caller called all the meanings of the King's name and did it every time he went somewhere. Since the king is also a member of their parliament, I wonder if the tradition is held the same in the city? Respond to this note Response Title: Re: DIscussion Topic--Week 2 Author: Dianna Marie Armstrong Date: Thursday, 10/16/2008 13:45 EDT Body: Why did you find the selected tale most interesting or intriguing? Or why was it your favorite? I found all the

stories to be very interesting for different reasons. I decided to go with Time Travelers.   >How does the selected tale show use of forensic anthropology and work by forensic anthropologists? The Chinese anthropologists brought the mummies to the archaeology institute and the rest to the museum. They determined that the oldest of the mummies was about 4000 years old. The clothes were identifiable as were blankets, a felt hat with an Eagle feather, and 3000 year old lamb ribs with a barbecue spit and a saddle. They determined that the bodies were so well preserved because of the dry salty desert soil and a glue like coating that had treated the bodies. They also determined that the bodies were probably caucasian herders from Kazakhstan in Pakistan. This angered the Chinese government because it showed that people from the west had come into China through trade routes much earlier than originally believed.   >Does the tale depict “medico-legal” evidence? Why or why not? I'm not sure. I am confused on the exact meaning. If the meaning is that the event had to take place in the last 50 years then no it didn't. If the discovery or investigation had to take place in the last 50 years then yes it did. I even tried looking on the web for a better explanation. The only thing I could find was that it pertains to medical and legal aspects of the evidence.   >Besides forensics, what other disciplines (fields of study) are shown in the tales? The Chinese archaeologists were involved from the beginning. A larger investigation into the origins of the mummies was taken on by University of Pennsylvania China Scholar, Victor Mair. He visited the museum and brought a team of specialists. It really only names the textile expert. Respond to this note Aside Title: Re: DIscussion Topic--Week 2 Author: Karen Charles Date: Thursday, 10/16/2008 20:20 EDT

I think it would be hard as a culture to one day be told that what you grew up believing about your ancestors wasn't true, and that it was in fact an entirely different culture that was to be credited with your history. Respond to this note Aside Title: Re: DIscussion Topic--Week 2 to Abby Author: Barbara J Jordan Date: Sunday, 10/19/2008 16:33 EDT Body: Hi Abby, My thoughts on the video was that perhaps the ancestors had actually come from North America. At that time there may well have been a land bridge between our continent and Asia. I thought perhaps the articles they found were Navtive American? Best Barbara Respond to this note Aside Title: Professor Author: Dianna Marie Armstrong Date: Monday, 10/20/2008 12:04 EDT Body: Thank you! That cleared it up so much better. I noticed that some classmates were talking about the remains being more than 50 years old but then others were taking about them being discovered in the last 50 years. I was very confused. Now I see, if the remains are less than 50 years old they are medico-legal if they are more than that they would be studied by different specialists. Respond to this note Aside Title: Abby & Barbara Author: Dianna Marie Armstrong Date: Monday, 10/20/2008 12:08 EDT Body: I don't think that they were trying to say their ancestors themselves had come from Pakistan only some of their customs especially with trade items. For

instance the weaving loom they discovered with the bodies. They said the style was much different than what the Chinese had produced before that time. I'm sure at the same time there were some relations between the Chinese people and the Pakistan traders that did produce some children. So I could see that angering the Chinese as well. The main concern was that now people would try to say they didn't discover items that they were claiming too. Respond to this note Aside Title: Professor to Abby Author: Jerilyn Pecotte Date: Monday, 10/20/2008 14:20 EDT Body: Thanks for reading my comment!  I was concerned that no one seemed to read it and it is very important for everyone to ready each other's posting since that would be as if we are in class discussing the subject! In reality, sometimes forensic anthropologists as physical anthropologists (or even vice versa) would examine material from an ancient or recent time period. Originally, there were no programs in forensic anthropology and most of the older forensic anthropologists studied physical anthropology and on the job!  For example, I was in the first forensic archaeology course ever taught in the US by Dr. Morse, Dailey and Stoutamire and it was very innovative. Respond to this note Response Title: Re: DIscussion Topic--Week 2 Author: Abby Renee King Date: Friday, 10/17/2008 10:58 EDT Body: > Why did you find the selected tale most interesting or intriguing? Or why was it your favorite? I selected the "Dead Man's Tale" as the most interesting video because it demonstrates how anthropologist have discovered the name's of  lower enlisted unknown soldiers under Custards command during the Battle of Little Big Horn. In addition, I can relate to the tale since I am a soldier was well. I find it fascinating that anthropologist would like to identify fallen soldiers for a battle that

Response Title: Re: DIscussion Topic--Week 2 - Time Travelers Author: Renee M Harris Date: Saturday, 10/18/2008 14:21 EDT Body: I found the transcript "Time Travelers" very interesting. The discovery of mummies in China which when investigated using forensic anthropology tools show that these mummies were of European decent. This discovery created waves in the Chinese government in that it could possibly change Chinese history as it now stands. Forensic anthropology techniques were able to uncover the ancestry of the bones which were found - which were deemed to be European. This discovery could mean that the technologies the Chinese hold as their own could have very way been derived from these early European travelers and the items they carried along with them. Further use of forensic achaeology of the materials found in and around the site where the mummies were discovered could lead to further speculations. Respond to this note Response Title: Re: DIscussion Topic--Week 2 Author: Barbara J Jordan Date: Saturday, 10/18/2008 18:05 EDT Body: I liked the Jamestown discussion the best because it was the most comprehensive as we do have a lot of historical basis for the examination. The way that the movie discusses the forencsics is fascinating. Togetherwith the presentation itself, I watched it three times. I did wish it was bigger so that I could have seen more. The biggest reason that it wouldn't have direct forensic application is that everyone involved in any crime would have been dead. However, eating dead corpses and the horse is pretty awful. One wonders if some may have died from disease. In addition to forensics the movie has sociological and information cultural information. Barbara Respond to this note Response Title: Re: Discussion Topic--Week 2 Author: Vini Smith

Date: Saturday, 10/18/2008 17:56 EDT Body: I viewed the "Time Traveler" video.  I found the video to be intriguing because of the mummies' such amazing condition as well as the reaction of the Chinese government regarding theories that China may not have invented some of the things they said they have.  They really took offense to that.  The tale show the use of forensic anthropology by examining the facial features of the mummies.  The "bumpy" nose bridge is indicative of Caucasoid origins.  The story does not depict a medico-legal evidence because there was no autopsy done; the mummies were still wrapped in their original clothing or wrap (i.e. the young child in the soft pressed wool).  Textile experts were brought in also to examine different types of cloths; what tools made them; what size of tools; what the cloths were made from. Respond to this note Aside Title: Re: Discussion Topic--Week 2 Author: Candice J Painter Date: Saturday, 10/18/2008 23:43 EDT Body: Vini, I believe that these mummified remains would not be considered medico-legal evidence because they are older than fifty years. Candice Respond to this note Response Title: The Real Pyramid Builders Author: Candice J Painter Date: Saturday, 10/18/2008 23:35 EDT Body: I thought "The Real Pyramid Builders" was very interesting because a lot could be learned about the lives of the people who helped build the ancient and mystifying pyramids through the burial places the anthropologists discovered. Specifically, I think the artifacts dug up spoke volumes about these peoples status and how they were treated in life. It was also somewhat of an important revelation because these builders of the pyramids were always thought to have been slaves of the Pharaohs. However, their tombs and burial places indicate that they were honored and respected and may not in fact of

I thought they were all interesting, but I chose “Dead man’s tales” because I have always been interested in the battle of Little Bighorn, and how the history and legends of the event are sorted out. How does the selected tale show use of forensic anthropology and work by forensic anthropologists? I thought it very interesting that by examining the skeleton, it could be told that the man spent a large amount of time riding on a horse, by the “pockets” in his spine. Also, being able to tell where a person spent his adult life by the complexity of his dental work. Does the tale depict “medico-legal” evidence? Why or why not? No. These remains are non-contemporary. Besides forensics, what other disciplines (fields of study) are shown in the tales? Archaeology, History, Dentistry Respond to this note Aside Title: Re: DIscussion Topic--Week 2 Author: Candice J Painter Date: Saturday, 10/18/2008 23:56 EDT Body: I also find it fascinating that so much can be discovered about a person through anthropology. Not just about their physical being, but about how they actually lived their life (through the physical findings). They can tell their sex, their age, how they died, perhaps their bad habits, even what they did for a living!   Respond to this note Aside Title: Re: DIscussion Topic--Week 2 Author: Rhonda L Potter Date: Sunday, 10/19/2008 13:44 EDT Body: Some of the reasons that you chose "Dead Man's Tales" are some of the reasons that I chose this course and find forensic anthropology so interesting. I find it

fascinating that you can tell where and how a person lived there life by the condition of their bones (dental work included). Respond to this note Title: Checklist Week 2 Author: Jerilyn Pecotte Date: Friday, 10/10/2008 22:22 EDT Body: Checklist for Week Two (ANTH 398F) > Required Reading: Thomas, Forensic Anthropology , chapters 4, 5, 6, 7 > Optional Reading: White et al., Human Bone Manual, Chapters 1, 4,6,7- 16(bone descriptions) >Review Instructor's PowerPoint presentation for Week Two >Submit Exercise on Human Skeletal Anatomy and Bones (Bone Quiz)to online assignment folder >  Required Reading: Thomas, Forensic Anthropology , chapters 4, 5, 6, 7  Optional Reading: White et al., Human Bone Manual, Chapters 1, 4,6,7- 16(bone descriptions)  Review Instructor's PowerPoint presentation for Week Two  Submit Exercise on Human Skeletal Anatomy and Bones to online assignment folder  Review the following websites:   > Online video with overview of human skeletal anatomy : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr2318z1XKg&feature=related   >Online Video with review of important bones of humans skeleton: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-RpCoBe4wI&feature=related   >Interactive exercises: http://sv.berkeley.edu/showcase/pages/bones.html   http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/body/interactives/3djigsaw_02/ index.shtml?skeleton   >Review Osteointeractive website on Human Osteology: http://library.med.utah.edu/kw/osteo/osteology/    Watch Online Video #2: " Dead Men's Tales" (Scientific American Frontiers) found at: