Classical Greece Worksheet 17
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17
Notice who these dialogues are named after. They are Gorgias and Protagoras, two Sophists who
you read when we discussed pro-Socratic philosophy. Gorgias was the master of rhetoric who
provided a rigorous argument that nothing exists and there is no truth. Protagoras was the person
who argued that “man is the measure of all things,” which is a denial of absolute truth and
morality.
In the selections for today, I have asked you to read two discussions of the nature of a good life. In
the first, the issue is whether the point of life is to be virtuous or to seek pleasure. In the second,
the issue is the nature of virtue itself.
Plato, “Gorgias”
[
481b – 507e]
Gorgias is a long dialogue, so I have asked you to read only the last part of it. Before this
selection, Gorgias and Socrates have a discussion of the nature of oratory and its relation to
morality. Then, Gorgias’ student Polus wants to abandon traditional morality, leading Socrates
ultimately to make the claim that it is “better to suffer injustice than to do injustice.”
At this point, Callicles explodes and joins the conversation. He says that Socrates has shamed
Gorgias and Polus into abandoning what they believe, but that he will follow the argument
through.
1.
What is the nature of justice, according to Callicles? (Remember that the Greek idea of
“justice” includes the idea of rightness or goodness generally.) [483b-484a]
Justice is the will
of the strong ruling over the weak.
2.
What does he say will happen to people like Socrates who try to live a life of conventional
virtue? [484c-486c]
Those who live virtuous lives will be oppressed by those who choose to
exploit their power.
They engage in a dialogue of the nature of justice, where Socrates asks for definitions and then
critiques the answers. Gorgias must then revise his definition a few times.
3.
How does Callicles define justice? [488b] The second time? [491a-b] The third time? [491c]
What is his final definition of goodness? [492c-d]
First he defined justice as the will of the
strong ruling the weak. Then, he defined it as a natural state where the superior dominate the
inferior. Finally, he concluded that justice was the alignment of oneself with nature, where
desire can be satisfied without limitation.
4.
We have now transitioned into a debate over whether the point of life is simply to pursue
pleasure. What is Socrates’ first reason why a life spent pursuing pleasure is not a good life?
[493b-c]
Pursuing pleasure would lead to overindulgence, which is detrimental to good
health.
5.
How does Socrates get Callicles to admit that not all pleasures are good? [494b-e]
He
presented an example of someone experiencing pain while pursuing pleasure, thus
highlighting an undesirable outcome resulting from the pursuit of pleasure.
6.
What is another argument that “pleasurable” is not the same as “good”? [497e-499b]
Some
pleasures are degrading, while others are virtuous. One aligns with the pursuit of goodness,
while the other caters to desire.
Having established that goodness is the proper goal of life, the dialogue now turns back to its
original topic: the relationship between rhetoric and morality, with Socrates being fiercely critical
of rhetoric as it was used in democratic Athens. At the same time, it is a criticism of politics is
based on rhetoric rather than philosophy.
7.
What is Socrates’ criticism of rhetoric? What is oratory supposed to do versus what it actually
does? [500c-507e]
Oratory should be used to educate, to guide individuals towards morality,
rather than to serve the desires of those skilled in persuasion.
Plato, “Protagoras” [351b – 362]
We join this dialogue about three-fourths of the way through. Socrates has asked Protagoras what
students get out of hiring the Sophist. Protagoras replies that he teaches his students to be good,
which surprises Socrates because he wasn’t aware that virtue could be taught. Protagoras offers a
long myth about how the capacity for virtue has been evenly distributed between all people,
which means they only need teachers to provide training.
This leads Socrates to ask about the relationship between Virtue and the various virtues. In other
words, what is the definition of virtue itself? Socrates argues that the many virtues like
moderation, honesty, and courage are really just examples of virtue and that virtue is one, unified
thing: wisdom. I will spare you from reading the specific arguments because they are dense and
Protagoras refuses to play along with Socrates, so their debate stops-and-starts and takes left
turns. Both parties wind up frustrated.
One seeming digression is where your reading assignment begins. Here, they discuss the nature of
pleasure and how we distinguish good pleasures from bad pleasures (like in the debate with
Callicles).
8.
What distinguishes a good pleasure from a bad pleasure? [351b-d]
file doesn’t work?
9.
What does it mean when someone says that they were overcome by their desires / pleasures?
Put another way, what is happening when someone believes something to be good but it is
really bad? [355b-357b]
10. What is the root of such mistakes? [358c]
11. Therefore, if all ways of living badly are rooted in the same flaw, all virtues must be the result
of the same Virtue. What is the essence of virtue? [361b]
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