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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina This research is presented to highlight the challenges faced by women within Royal FrieslandCampina when advancing in their career, to make fitting recommendations to increase the number of women in senior management positions. Confidential Name student: Marja Veening Student number: 386952 Project company: Royal FrieslandCampina IBS Supervisor: Sait Gürbüz Co-marker: Ulrike Mathies Wordcount: 13,987 words Date: June 2 nd , 2022
Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 ii
Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 iii
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 iv Abstract Women are becoming more involved in the workforce, yet the percentage of women in senior management roles remains minimal. Within Royal FrieslandCampina (RFC), this is no exception. According to previous studies, numerous barriers prevent women from entering positions of power. These barriers, found in previous research, can be grouped into three categories: organizational, cultural, and individual. In order to understand which barriers are preventing women from progressing to senior management positions within RFC, 21 semi- structured interviews have been conducted with Dutch female professionals within the company. The results of these interviews indicate that most of the barriers mentioned in previous research are also experienced within RFC. The main issues are the lack of support for maternity leave, discrimination relating to their gender, the old boys' network, and a lack of role models. Because RFC wants to achieve >30% women in senior management positions by 2024, the above-mentioned barriers must be addressed. Therefore, several facilitators were discovered within the primary and secondary research to create appropriate recommendations. These include follow-up research of discrimination inside Dutch plants, implementing a managers' guide to maternity leave, and a role modeling event to connect middle and senior managers. These recommendations will support RFC in increasing gender diversity in senior management positions. Furthermore, this explorative research contributes to the existing literature by providing further insights into what struggles women face within their careers and how they can be overcome. Keywords: Gender Diversity, Female Career Advancement, Senior Management
Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 v Executive Summary Diversity and Inclusion is becoming a more important topic for companies in order to attract new employees and, more importantly, retain the current employees. This is likewise true for Royal FrieslandCampina (RFC). To aid in the process, RFC has developed an Inclusion Diversity (ID) strategy. By 2024, one of the goals is to have more than 30% women in senior management roles. The company now employs 26,4% of women in senior management roles, a proportion that has been decreasing in recent years. As a result, this study is being conducted to understand more about what prevents women from progressing to senior management roles within RFC and provide appropriate recommendations for RFC to support these women better. According to previous studies, women confront several barriers in their careers, which can be divided into three categories: organizational, cultural, and individual barriers. Furthermore, recent studies have shown that the barriers may be overcome with appropriate facilitators. 21 semi-structured interviews with Dutch female RFC workers were conducted to determine which barriers are prominent inside RFC for females when advancing in their careers. The inductive research technique was chosen for a level of flexibility needed within this research due to the personal nature of the interviews and the diverse experiences women had. The results of the primary research revealed that most of the barriers found in previous research were also experienced within RFC. However, the frequency of some barriers was surprising. The most frequent barriers are lack of support during maternity leave, discrimination regarding their female gender, the presence of an old boys' network in which white males are mainly found at the top of the company, and the invisibility of role models within RFC. However, the females also mentioned what would help them in the interview, and together with the facilitators found in previous research, three appropriate recommendations were created. The first recommendation is that a follow-up study should be conducted on the discrimination occurring primarily at Dutch RFC plants. The second recommendation is that a managers' guide and checklist should be implemented in order to better help women before, during, and after their maternity leave. The final recommendation is to organize a role modeling event where middle and senior managers can get together to support each other and share their experiences in order to help each other overcome challenges. Overall, these recommendations will aid RFC in developing a more gender-balanced top.
Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 vi Acknowledgments The process of writing this thesis has been difficult at times, but it has also been quite intriguing and exciting to do. Without the assistance, support, and contributions of various individuals, my thesis would not be where it is now, and I would like to thank them hereby. I want to express my gratitude to all the participated female interviewees for their time, energy, and valuable contributions. I was happy to see how eager these women were to engage in this research and how open they were to sharing their personal and often surprising experiences and perspectives. This research would not have been possible without these women, and their experiences have moved and inspired me. In addition, I want to express my sincere gratitude to my supervisors, Sait Gürbüz and Lesley Cordial, for all of their assistance and direction during this process. This was my first time doing large-scale qualitative research, and their support and prompt replies were valuable. Finally, I would like to thank my family and friends for their support and encouragement during this hectic but exciting last period of my study.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 vii Contents Abstract ..................................................................................................................................... iv Executive Summary ................................................................................................................... v Acknowledgments ..................................................................................................................... vi List of Tables ............................................................................................................................. x List of Figures ........................................................................................................................... xi 1. Introduction ........................................................................................................................ 1 1.1 Company description .................................................................................................. 1 1.2 Problem statement ....................................................................................................... 2 1.2.1 Focus Area ................................................................................................................ 3 1.3 Statement of objective ................................................................................................. 4 1.4 Research questions ...................................................................................................... 4 1.5 Structure of the report ................................................................................................. 4 2. Literature Review ............................................................................................................... 5 Gender Diversity benefits and cases ...................................................................................... 5 Barriers for female career advancement ................................................................................ 6 Facilitators for female career advancement ......................................................................... 11 The context of the research and conceptual model .............................................................. 12 3. Methodology .................................................................................................................... 14 3.1 Research Approach ................................................................................................... 14 3.2 Sampling and Sampling Technique .......................................................................... 14 3.3 Instrument(s) ............................................................................................................. 17 3.4 Data Collection Procedure ........................................................................................ 18 3.5 Data Analysis ............................................................................................................ 19 3.6 Reliability and Validity ............................................................................................. 20 3.7 Ethical Implications .................................................................................................. 20 4. Findings and Analysis ...................................................................................................... 22 4.1 Organizational Barriers ............................................................................................. 22 4.1.1 Maternity Leave and Performance Ratings ......................................................... 22 4.1.2 Vision on Part-Time work .................................................................................. 24 4.1.3 Lack of Mentoring and Training ......................................................................... 25 4.1.4 Inadequate Facilities at the Office ...................................................................... 25 4.2 Cultural Barriers ........................................................................................................ 27 4.2.1 Old Boys' Network and Mini-Me Syndrome ...................................................... 27 4.2.2 Discrimination and Stereotyping ........................................................................ 28 4.2.3 Male Vision ......................................................................................................... 29 4.2.4 Social expectations of women ............................................................................ 30
Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 viii 4.3 Individual Barriers .................................................................................................... 32 4.3.1 Lack of Confidence ............................................................................................. 32 4.3.2 Own Choices ....................................................................................................... 33 4.3.3 Imposter Syndrome ............................................................................................. 34 4.4 Facilitators ................................................................................................................. 35 4.5 Analysis ..................................................................................................................... 37 4.5.1 Department .......................................................................................................... 37 4.5.2 Age ...................................................................................................................... 38 4.5.3 Hay grade ............................................................................................................ 39 4.5.4 Conclusion .......................................................................................................... 39 5. Discussion and Conclusion .............................................................................................. 40 5.1 Summary of findings ................................................................................................. 40 5.2 Implications for Theory ............................................................................................ 41 5.3 Limitations and Future Research .............................................................................. 42 5.4 Conclusion ................................................................................................................ 43 6. Recommendations ............................................................................................................ 44 6.1 Follow-up Research into Discrimination within Dutch Plants ................................. 44 6.2 Better Support Maternity Leave ................................................................................ 45 6.3 Role Model Event ..................................................................................................... 46 References ................................................................................................................................ 48 Appendices ............................................................................................................................... 52 Appendix A RFC Employee Data in The Netherlands ..................................................... 52 Appendix B Table with Female vs Male Distribution RFC and The Netherlands ........... 53 Appendix C Potential Ratings Females RFC .................................................................... 54 Appendix D Facilitators .................................................................................................... 55 Appendix E Email Invitation to Possible Interviewees .................................................... 57 Appendix F Interview Script ............................................................................................. 58 Appendix G Transcript Interview 1 .................................................................................. 60 Appendix H Transcript Interview 2 .................................................................................. 68 Appendix I Transcript Interview 3 .................................................................................... 73 Appendix J Transcript Interview 4 ................................................................................... 79 Appendix K Transcript Interview 5 .................................................................................. 85 Appendix L Transcript Interview 6 ................................................................................... 91 Appendix M Transcript Interview 7 ................................................................................. 98 Appendix N Transcript Interview 8 ................................................................................ 107 Appendix O Transcript Interview 9 ................................................................................ 113 Appendix P Transcript Interview 10 ............................................................................... 119
Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 ix Appendix Q Transcript Interview 11 .............................................................................. 127 Appendix R Transcript Interview 12 .............................................................................. 133 Appendix S Transcript Interview 13 ............................................................................... 139 Appendix T Transcript Interview 14 ............................................................................... 147 Appendix U Transcript Interview 15 .............................................................................. 152 Appendix V Transcript Interview 16 .............................................................................. 156 Appendix W Transcript Interview 17 ............................................................................. 162 Appendix X Transcript Interview 18 .............................................................................. 168 Appendix Y Transcript Interview 19 .............................................................................. 174 Appendix Z Transcript Interview 20 ............................................................................... 180 Appendix AA Transcript Interview 21 ........................................................................... 185 Appendix BB Group Codes Atlas.ti ................................................................................ 190 Appendix CC Pilot Test Interview and Outcome ........................................................... 191 Appendix DD Email Member Check .............................................................................. 195 Appendix EE Email Before Interview ............................................................................ 196 Appendix FF Survey for Follow-up Research ................................................................ 197 Appendix GG Managers Guide and Checklist to Maternity Leave ................................ 200 Appendix HH Project Agreement ................................................................................... 205 Appendix II Disclaimer ................................................................................................... 208
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 x List of Tables Table 1, Gender Diversity Data Senior Management RFC 2 Table 2, Sub Research Questions 12 Table 3, Interviewee List 16 Table 4, Interview Questions Aligned with the Sub Research Questions 17 Table 5, Research Question Answer Justification 18 Table 6, Supply Chain and Human Resources NL Gender Distribution 37 Table 7, Action List for Investigation Discrimination against Women within Dutch plants 44 Table 8, Action List Supporting Women better within their Maternity Leave 46 Table 9, Action List Role Model Event 47 Table 10, Amount of Employees in The Netherlands 52 Table 11, Amount of Senior Management Roles within The Netherlands 52 Table 12, Male vs Female Distribution RFC 53 Table 13, Distribution Female vs Male The Netherlands 53 Table 14, Potential Rating Male and Female RFC 54 Table 15, Facilitators Overview 55 Table 16, Manager Checklist 203
Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 xi List of Figures Figure 1, Diversity and Inclusion pillars RFC 2 Figure 2, Structure report 4 Figure 3, Model Perceptions of Glass Ceiling (Elaqua et al., 2009) 7 Figure 4, Hofstede Cultural Dimensions the Netherlands (Hofstede Insights, 2021) 10 Figure 5, Conceptual model 12 Figure 6, Organizational Barriers RFC 22 Figure 7, Cultural Barriers RFC 27 Figure 8, Individual Barriers RFC 32 Figure 9, Facilitators RFC 35 Figure 10, Distribution barriers per department 37 Figure 11, Distribution barriers per age 38 Figure 12, Distribution barriers per Hay Grade 39 Figure 13, Potential Ratings RFC 54
Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 x 1. Introduction Within this first chapter of this thesis, the company, the problem that needed researching and the objective of the research will be highlighted. The main research question will also be presented, and the structure of the remainder of the thesis will be indicated. 1.1 Company description Royal FrieslandCampina N.V. is a fast-moving consumer goods company headquartered in The Netherlands. The goods consist of dairy products, including dairy-based beverages, infant nutrition, cheese, desserts, cream, ingredients, and base ingredients, amongst others. The company ’s purpose is to provide better nutrition for the world and a better living for farmers. The company was founded in 1871 by several farmers wanting to join forces to dominate the Dutch milk market, and since then, the company has evolved to over 23,000 employees in 36 countries. Furthermore, RFC exports its dairy products to over 100 countries worldwide and currently ranks as the fifth-largest dairy corporation globally, generating 11 billion euros of revenue yearly. RFC has many brands for consumers, for example, Campina, Alaska, Chocomel, Dutch Lady, and Frisian Flag. Additionally, the company also has Business to Business (B2B) brands for use by food service professionals and industrial customers (FrieslandCampina, 2022). As a result, RFC has both B2B and B2C activities. All over the world, the employees of RFC focus on providing added value. The strategy ‘Our Purpose, Our Plan’ creates focus throughout the company and inspires to achieve great things for all stakeholders. It begins with the purpose of nourishing by nature , meaning RFC aims to guarantee better nutrition for the world and a good living for farmers. Furthermore, the plan that puts that purpose into action is categorized into four central themes: - Win with nutrition : producing good and healthy dairy products - Serve the 24/7 customer and consumer : serving customers and consumers anytime and anywhere - Nourishing a better planet : creating a sustainable dairy industry - Elevate our essentials : improve position in essential dairy products The company is wholly owned by the dairy corporation FrieslandCampina U.A. holding comprising 16,995-member dairy farmers in The Netherlands, Belgium, and Germany. To provide specialized goods and attention to specific markets, the company’s activities are
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 2 separated into four market-oriented business groups: Food and Beverage, Trading, Ingredients, and Specialized Nutrition (FrieslandCampina, 2022). 1.2 Problem statement The current problem that resides within RFC is one within Inclusive Diversity (ID). RFC has created an ID strategy that provides an inclusive work environment that allows all employees to unlock their full potential and bring their whole and authentic selves to work. Implementation of the ID strategy is critical in building the company culture that underpins sustainable business performance. This strategy has been built around four critical focus areas. The four focus areas are gender parity, honoring different cultures and religions, mental health & physical disability, and LGBTIQ+ (see figure 1). The first pillar, gender parity, will be the focus of this research as there is a gap between the current situation and RFC’s goal . The focus will be on the first target of the Gender parity pillar, which aims to have >30% women in senior management by 2024. Within table 1, the current status versus the ambition of the target is highlighted. Table 1, Gender Diversity Data Senior Management RFC Current Goal Difference Women in senior management 95 women (26,4%) 108 women (30,2%) 13 women (- 3,8%) Figure 1, Diversity and Inclusion pillars RFC
Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 3 Looking at the table and the difference, it appears that RFC would be able to fulfill the target by the necessary year 2024, as the difference is only minimal. However, looking at the trend of this number, there seems to be an issue. The percentage of women in senior management jobs declined from 27,4 percent to 26,1 percent in 2021. Meaning that the number is not advancing in the direction wanted or required to achieve the objective. Furthermore, when looking at the company statistics, it can be seen that the percentage of women reduces dramatically from Hay grade 19 (HGRL19) to Hay grade 20 (HGRL20) and from Hay grade 21 (HGRL21) to Hay grade 22 (HGRL22). Hay grades means the employee’s pay grade and level of knowledge, experience, and responsibilities in which HGRL19 is at a middle management position and HGRL20 is at the senior management level. The causes of these declines are unclear, and a root cause analysis forms an essential part of this research in order to determine the correct recommendations. 1.2.1 Focus Area Within RFC, 39% of employees are located in The Netherlands, and holds 58% of the senior management roles (see appendix A). Therefore, it was decided to focus on The Netherlands and the female employees that work in the Dutch offices and plants. Furthermore, when looking more closely at the distribution of females and males in The Netherlands at HGRL18+, the move to a senior management role for females has a bigger gap in The Netherlands than the RFC average (appendix B). The gap between HGRL19 and HGRL20 is 12% in The Netherlands as opposed to the 8% average within RFC. Therefore, The Netherlands can be seen as potentially providing a solid contribution and opportunity to achieve the Gender Parity target. Overall, women appear to be underrepresented and dropping in number, resulting in a gender imbalance in senior management positions. This is interesting as women, on average, receive better potential ratings within the company (see appendix C). This gender imbalance within RFC may also be considered as an opportunity to investigate since driving diversity can give numerous possibilities and advantages, which are highlighted in the literature review. This research is of significance for the company because, in The Netherlands, there is now a legislation in which Dutch multinationals need to reach a specific female quota within their board of directors. The quota by the size of the multinational and is around setting realistic by challenging targets, for the multinationals to start developing initiatives to achieve these targets,
Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 4 tracking, and reporting on progress (Ministerie van Justitie en Veiligheid, 2021). Since RFC is not meeting this quota yet (30%), this research will give them a good look into the barriers and struggles females face within the company to better facilitate them. 1.3 Statement of objective In order to support RFC in abiding by the new Dutch legislation and achieve their ID targets, this research s objective is to gain an understanding of the barriers and challenges faced by women moving into, and progressing within, senior management in order to provide realistic and tangible recommendations for the company to implement to achieve the >30% women in 2024. 1.4 Research questions The main research question correlates with the statement of objective mentioned above. The main research question (MRQ) is as follows: MRQ: How can FrieslandCampina increase gender diversity (% of women present) in senior management positions to achieve >30% women by 2024? 1.5 Structure of the report Within this research report, the beginning can be divided into three stages, which are ‘why,’ ‘what’ and ‘how’ . In figure 2, this structure, together with the chapter names, can be found. The introduction functions as an answer to the question why, explaining the company and the problem. The literature review will give more details on the topic of gender diversity and show previous research done regarding this topic. Furthermore, the methodology will explain how this research was done, highlighting all methods and approaches. After that, the findings will be highlighted and analyzed, resulting in a discussion and conclusion to end with recommendations. Figure 2, Structure Report
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 5 2. Literature Review This chapter provides an overview of academic studies on gender diversity. The benefits and cases of gender diversity are examined, and the challenges to and potential facilitators of growing gender diversity in the workplace. Lastly, the conceptual model and sub-research questions are highlighted. Gender Diversity benefits and cases Regarding gender diversity in businesses, women are underrepresented in positions of authority and decision-making. In the United States, women receive 77 cents for every dollar made by men in managerial positions. Women's underrepresentation in most economic sectors has a detrimental influence on company structure and culture, with negative implications for women's performance and promotion opportunities, particularly at higher levels of management (Krishna & Orhun, 2021). Even though Krishna & Orhun's (2021) research was focused on the United States, in The Netherlands, the trend of underrepresentation can be seen as well, with only 12% of women on the management boards of publicly traded corporations in 2020. However, when looking at the trend of this percentage, it has risen from 8% in 2019 to 12% in 2020 (CBS, 2021). Although this number is rising, the presence of women is still low because data shows that girls outperform boys in school and that more women pursue higher education, which they complete more effectively and faster than men (CBS, 2021). The number may also be rising due to new Dutch legislation implemented, which includes that large multinational companies must have at least one-third of the seats on the supervisory board filled by women. This creates a big step for companies as they now have to act and take action and develop action plans to support the development of women into senior positions (Ministerie van Justitie en Veiligheid, 2021). Encouraging and growing gender diversity in businesses cannot be overstated. Several studies have found a link between gender diversity and company performance that is both favorable and substantial. Brahma, Nwafor, & Boateng (2020) investigated the profitability of women on boards of directors. They confirm the link and discover the exact favorable and substantial correlation between gender diversity and a company's performance. Another interesting research has been done on group performances, where groups with members with higher IQs did not earn much higher scores; those that had more women did. Each group was assigned
Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 6 several complex tasks, and as mentioned, the groups with more women outperformed the groups with fewer women (Woolley & Malone, 2011). As a result, organizations that function efficiently and employ a (gender) diverse workforce have a competitive advantage in their communities and throughout the world. They become more attractive places to work, enhancing their ability to recruit and maintain a gender-varied workforce, improve customer-oriented processes, and increase employee satisfaction. This reputation strengthens the company's capacity to compete in global and emerging markets, as well as helping in the 'war for talent' (Pierog & Seliverstova, 2021). However, the benefits of having more women in higher positions are not just financially and business-related, but it also carries personal and societal benefits for the women themselves. When looking at the statistics of The Netherlands, of the approximately 17,5 million inhabitants, 50,2% are female (Statista, 2022). Making the female population in The Netherlands the majority by a small percentage. Research shows that having a career creates an identity that has social value and status and creates a different social network, which can all be beneficial to women (Hamilton-Volpe & Marcinkus-Murphy, 2011). Furthermore, another article highlights the benefits of women having financial independence and a promising career, which positively impacts women psychologically and their self-confidence (Sethi, 2022). Even though both articles did not focus on The Netherlands specifically, both are very internationally based. The core benefit can be considered the same for the women in The Netherlands. Barriers for female career advancement Despite all of the advantages of having more women in high leadership roles, women continue to remain underrepresented. According to research, women are more hesitant to apply for a job until they are totally qualified. But men would nominate themselves even if they do not match all standards (Ibarra, Ely & Kolb, 2013). Next to this, there are several other factors and barriers mentioned in other research that influence the lack of women at top positions and moreover, promotional differences. This phenomenon of women not being promoted to higher positions is called the glass ceiling effect. It suggests that there is an unseen barrier preventing women from progressing up the corporate ladder (Showkat, 2021). The glass ceiling, according to the article, is caused by
Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 7 Figure 3, Model Perceptions of Glass Ceiling (Elaqua et al., 2009, p. 291) gender bias, which favors males over women. Furthermore, it explains how sexism is constantly present regarding hiring women for higher jobs. While the role of a woman is valued and acknowledged by her family and society, the same cannot be said for their professional contributions in corporations (Showkat, 2021). Organizational and Structural Barriers There are many other barriers that researchers have found, Elacqua, Beehr, Hansen, & Webster (2009) created a model to explain the glass ceiling effect through mainly organizational and structural barriers. They studied why women managers are underrepresented at the top levels of their organizations through their study. They established a model (figure 3) in which attitudes about interpersonal and situational organizational characteristics were positively connected to perceptions of unequal treatment between men and women, which were then positively related to perceptions of a glass ceiling. As can be seen there are several barriers mentioned in the model, which can be repeatedly found in other articles as well. The article mentions that a lack of high-level organizational mentors is deleterious to women’s career progression. Furthermore it me ntions the big informal social network of senior men within a firm. Networks refer to the development and use of career-relevant contact in which members exchange valuable strategic information, contacts, and recommendations. Several studies mention that women do not have this network due to the fact that women are being assigned positions with lower visibility, limiting the opportunity
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 8 to connect with high-ranking individuals. Limited access to such network can reduce the chance of promotion. Perry, Mesch, and Paarlberg (2006) also confirm this statement, they continue that the presence of the glass ceiling is mirroring in the women s workforce being given fewer challenging tasks. Employee work performance has been proven to be negatively correlated with firms incapacity to deliver difficult assignments to their employees. Next to the interpersonal issues there are also situational issues mentioned in the model. The first one is the existence of objective criteria for procedures established within the company (hiring and promotion). Research showed that the promotion criteria are more severe and more related to job performance for female hiring managers compared to the males (Babic & Hansez, 2021). The other barrier in the situational issues is time in pipeline, in which one would think that a women manager is a serious candidate for promotion if she already occupies a managerial position and participates in the development activities of the company. However, Elacqua et al., (2009) discuss that this happens much less frequently for women as for men. Creating different treatments and creating the perception of a glass ceiling. Cultural Barriers Several articles discuss the dimensions of the glass ceiling with cultural barriers; Landrine and Klonoff (1998) believe that sexual harassment in the workplace can lead to a decline in women's capacity to do their jobs and therefore limiting the promotional opportunities. Even though this article was written more than two decades ago, sexual harassment of women on the work floor is still very much a recent issue (Brown & Battle, 2019). Hoobler, Wayne, and Lemmon (2009) argue that the glass ceiling was formed by supervisors perceptions of family commitments. According to their findings, supervisors perceive women to have a bigger family-work conflict than males, which explains why women have a harder time getting promoted. Later on, in the article it mentions that there is a notion that leadership performance is linked to male attributes, which creates another obstacle for women (Hoobler et al., 2009). This is supported through the social role theory. The social role theory explains that people s perceptions about social groups in their society are formed by their interactions with group members in their usual social roles. According to this theory, the image of a high-
Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 9 functioning manager is frequently associated with so-called masculine characteristics such as authority, independence, competitiveness, and aggression. As a result, women who have been linked with completely opposite attributes, would be less committed to their careers and incapable of managing them (Koenig & Eagly, 2014). These stereotypes about women have an adverse impact on their assessments and judgments. Women s lack of access to boards can also be investigated through a specific aspect of director selection processes: the involvement of present directors and executives networks, popularly known as old boys network. Individuals with comparable features (including gender) are embedded in networks, which can be characterized as configurations of relationships. In the case of boards, old boys networks are characterized as the normally dominating group in most organizations, wherein men share a common social and academic background, hold high-level hierarchical positions, and purposefully exclude women from casual interactions (Allemand, Bédard, Brullebaut, & Deschênes, 2021). This could eventually lead to the so-called mini-me syndrome, in which top leaders feel more at ease when key organizational jobs are filled by persons who are identical to the occupant (Frase-Blunt, 2003). Women are therefore, mainly, not part of these networks or positions, according to social role theory and the Elacqua et al. (2009) model Another mentioned, and well-known, barrier is maternity leaves. Several studies have found that childbirth and raising children has a negative impact on female professionals job advancement. Women with children are less likely than men to begin a challenging career (Ahmad, 2016). There is also a correlation between family formation and women being overrepresented in non-tenured occupations. However, there are conflicting findings about the relationship between family-related characteristics and women s tenure and promotions. However, Hideg, Krstic, Trau, and Zarina (2018) suggest that the longer new mothers are away from paid employment, the less likely they are to be promoted, promoted into management, or given a pay boost once their leave is finished. The authors go on to say that there is a stereotype that women (and even men) who take a lengthier maternity leave are less committed to their jobs. Even though this study was performed in Canada and the length of the leaves differs in Canada and The Netherlands, the research’s conclusion that maternity leave has a detrimental impact on one’ s career is widely accepted (Hideg et al., 2018).
Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 10 Individual Barriers Lastly, there are the individual barriers which might be hardest to overcome due to the personal aspect of them. One personal aspect is the decision of women to work part time. The OECD undertook research exclusively in The Netherlands to examine the absence of gender equality in higher-level professions in the country. According to the study, over 60% of women in the Dutch labor market work part-time, which has a substantial impact on the gender wage gap, the gender pension gap, and the slower advancement of women into management positions. When women become mothers, they begin working part-time in order to care for their children. Even though the mothers have partners and a desire to share equal responsibility for childcare, only 40% think this happens in practice, and women take on greater responsibilities (OECD, 2019). The large number of part-time working women may be traced back to the Dutch culture, which values a healthy work-life balance and encourages personal well-being. This is supported through Hofstede’s cultural dimensions. In which The Netherlands scores 14 on masculinity (figure 4), meaning that The Netherlands is a rather feminine culture. This means that Dutch people highly value a work-life balance and want to like what job they are doing (Hofstede Insights, 2021) Figure 4, Hofstede Cultural Dimensions The Netherlands (Hofstede Insights, 2021) However, being this feminine in culture also has its negative side as previously said, as working part-time is associated with slower career advancement, lower wages, and, in many situations, lower job quality than full-time employees (OECD, 2019).
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 11 Another individual barrier preventing women from career advancement is their lack of self- confidence. Burnford (2019) conducted a research in which there were 635 female respondents who identified following three barriers when wanting to reach a more senior position: - No visibility of internal opportunities (39% agreed) - Concern that others do not have confidence in my abilities (35% agreed) - Lack of confidence and belief in own ability (34% agreed) As can be seen above two of the three barriers concern the belief in confidence. The research further highlights that 76% of the respondents lack confidence on a regular basis and only 20% said that they rarely lack confidence (Burnford, 2019). This characteristic is common under women (and some men) that will decrease their ability to promote to higher positions. Facilitators for female career advancement As a result, there are many hurdles preventing women from progressing in their careers, but there is also a lot of research on the facilitators that might help improve the situation. Several attempts have been made to address the issue of diversity. Businesses, governments, and society have all taken part in these initiatives, with varying results. It is crucial to investigate which efforts have already been made in order to understand what initiatives could help RFC, after the issues have been investigated. Several studies have looked into the most successful ways to achieve gender diversity in senior management, as well as across the entire organization. Organizations can begin by admitting and acknowledging that there is gender bias and inequality in workplace, and by paying attention to the topic. Furthermore, businesses can make diversity a part of their policy and strategy (Sandberg, 2013). Table 16 in appendix D lists a number of alternative activities that a corporation can pursue. The facilitators are linked to the aforementioned barriers to assist in determining what can be done to address the problems. Furthermore, having an inclusive business culture, which refers to organizationally shared values and ideas that reflect employees perceptions of how things should be and are, is critical (Elaqua et al., 2009). The corporation should avoid cultivating a male-dominated organizational culture and decrease the beliefs about the incompatibility of motherhood, marriage, and management. In addition to culture, women aiding women is a key facilitator
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 12 Figure 5, Conceptual model that should not be disregarded. Women who have made it to the top believe that they have had to put in a lot of effort to get there. They believe that other women should work as hard as they do to achieve success. These high-ranking women tend to credit their achievements to merit, rather than overcoming institutional barriers that senior women can influence. As a result, these women should coach and advise other women on how to overcome these obstacles and reach the top (Babic & Hansez, 2021). The context of the research and conceptual model Concluding the literature review, not many models were found that are applicable to this research; therefore, the literature review is somewhat academic. Furthermore, all mentioned barriers can be classified into three categories; organizational, cultural, and individual barriers. All these barriers lead to the reason why women have a more difficult time progressing in their careers. Therefore, a conceptual model has been created to outline the findings and framework of this study (figure 5). It is necessary to discover which specific barriers are salient for RFC, through qualitative research, in order to create fitting facilitators. Therefore, four sub-research questions have been created. These questions will need to be answered to be able to answer the main research question. These sub-research questions are linked to the conceptual model. The sub-research questions can be seen in table 2.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 13 Table 2, Sub Research Questions sRQ 1 What organizational barriers are experienced or seen within FrieslandCampina by female employees? sRQ 2 What cultural barriers are experienced or seen within FrieslandCampina by female employees? sRQ 3 What individual barriers are experienced or seen within FrieslandCampina by female employees? sRQ 4 What facilitators can FrieslandCampina implement to decrease the barriers?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 14 3. Methodology Within this chapter, the methods and approaches of data collection will be explained and highlighted. 3.1 Research Approach In this research, the inductive research approach was applied. It is one of three research approaches, with inductive being the development of theory from previously obtained data (Saunders & Lewis, 2012). The use of the inductive research approach allowed for some flexibility in this research. The previous research was used to establish some hypothetical hurdles that may be encountered within RFC, and that needs a better understanding to get a general conclusion at the end. This strategy allows for adjustments to the research to be made as the data is being collected (Saunders & Lewis, 2012). Since the females all have their own stories, it was necessary to make some changes along the way. Some data suggested that there is an emphasis on, for example, maternity leave. The questions could still be adjusted and more focused on that, therefore, this approach fits the research best. In addition to secondary research, semi-structured interviews and the RFC database were used to collect primary and secondary data. Because a better understanding of gender diversity was required, this research is exploratory in nature (Saunders & Lewis, 2012). The grounded theory research method was selected for this research since it primarily belongs to the inductive research approach and provides for the amount of flexibility required in this research. The grounded theory technique entails developing a theory based on facts gathered via observations or interviews. It seeks to determine what people's social interactions and experiences signify (Saunders & Lewis, 2012). Furthermore, grounded theory is a personal technique, which is relevant for this research given the semi-structured interviews performed with women to learn about their personal experiences. All of RFC's encountered hurdles will be investigated and categorized to understand where the disparities are and to come up with a well-fitting conclusion. 3.2 Sampling and Sampling Technique Due to the time limits of this research, and because RFC is a large company with over 24.000 employees globally, it was not possible to interview the entire female population. Since the entire population could not be interviewed, sampling was necessary. A sample is a sub-group
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 15 that should represent the entire group or the entire population (Saunders & Lewis, 2012). The population being all females that are located in the Dutch offices and plants, due to the big representation that The Netherlands has and the opportunity that therefore resides there. The RFC internal database contained a list of all female employees and their characteristics like age, job title, email, Hay grade, etcetera. Probability sampling could be used because a list of the entire population could be obtained. Because the interviews focus on the career development of women at RFC, it was essential that the potential interviewees have been with the organization for at least a couple of years. Furthermore, because this study focuses on the development of women from HGRL18-19 to HGRL20+, it was necessary for the women to be functioning in these Hay grades. Therefore, using filters, the list of females that worked at least three years within RFC and had a position at HGRL18+ were selected at random. The stratified random sampling technique was therefore used. This is a type of probability sampling in which the sample frame is first divided into relevant strata. As it was necessary to interview women from several different departments, the population was divided into strata of their departments. Afterward, using simple random sampling, each member was selected. Due to the large amount of information needed for this research, over 35 women were invited to an interview via email; the invitation email sent can be found in appendix E. Not every female replied to the invitation or was not willing to participate. In the end, 25 females responded with the willingness to join the research. Because the interview asked for very personal experiences, and each experience was unique, the exact number of interviews could not be predicted in advance. It was decided to employ the data saturation technique, which entails conducting interviews until no new information is provided (Saunders & Lewis, 2012). After 21 interviews, the data was saturated. This enabled the researcher to collect as much information as possible in order to answer the research questions. As previously stated, the interviews were very personal, and each female faced different challenges; however, the same themes continued to emerge after 21 interviews, so it was decided to stop.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 16 The interviewees were kept anonymous due to the personal nature of the interviews and the sensitive information provided during the interviews. This also increased females' willingness to participate in this study and reduced the possibility of subject bias, in which respondents may give false information because they believe telling the truth will cast them in a negative light (Saunders & Lewis, 2012). All females have been assigned a number in order to be identified. Table 3 below contains the list of interviewees. Table 3, Interviewee List Interviewee number Department Tenure Date of interview 1 IT 9 years 06-04-2022 2 Supply Chain 36 years 07-04-2022 3 HR 20 years 07-04-2022 4 Commercial 14 years 08-04-2022 5 Supply Chain 9 years 11-04-2022 6 HR 5 years 11-04-2022 7 HR 9 years 12-04-2022 8 R&D 19 years 12-04-2022 9 General Management 15 years 13-04-2022 10 Finance 13 years 14-04-2022 11 Legal 12 years 14-04-2022 12 Supply Chain 3 years 15-04-2022 13 HR 12 years 15-04-2022 14 Supply Chain 7 years 19-04-2022 15 Supply Chain 7 years 20-04-2022 16 HR 3 years 20-04-2022 17 Finance 8 years 21-04-2022 18 Commercial 8 years 25-04-2022 19 Finance 7 years 28-04-2022 20 Commercial 10 years 26-04-2022 21 Commercial 13 years 29-04-2022
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 17 As can be seen, the females come from various departments and have been with the company for more than three years. Furthermore, all females are from different Hay grades but are all higher than HGRL18. Furthermore, the interviewees have an average age of 42 and a tenure of 11 years. 3.3 Instrument(s) The interview questions were created after the sample was established. The interviews, as previously stated, were semi-structured in order to provide structure while also allowing for freedom in order to obtain the best and most information possible. As a result, the interviewer asked preset questions in a random order, or asked additional questions to obtain more detailed information (Saunders & Lewis, 2012). A table with interview questions corresponding to the relevant sub-research questions has been created to ensure that the interview questions provide answers to the sub-research questions (table 4). Table 4, Interview Questions Aligned with the Sub Research Questions Sub-research question: Sample interview question: SRQ1: What organizational barriers are experienced or seen within FrieslandCampina by female employees? Do you feel supported by FrieslandCampina to advance in your career? (e.g. availability of trainings/mentors) If you look back on your maternity leave what was good and what was missing in terms of support and policies? SRQ2: What cultural barriers are experienced or seen within FrieslandCampina by female employees? Have you ever experienced or seen any type of discrimination or stereotyping relating to your gender during your career at FrieslandCampina? Do you feel like you are treated differently because of your gender? (e.g. promotional opportunities) SRQ3: What individual barriers are experienced or seen within Some researchers have questioned whether female lack of confidence and their personality
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 18 FrieslandCampina by female employees? has something to do with their slower career advancement, what do you think of this? The OECD has done a research and found that 60% of the working females work part-time, do you think this has any influence on their career advancement and lack of female presence in higher positions? sRQ4: What facilitators can FrieslandCampina implement to decrease these barriers? If you were the CEO of FrieslandCampina what would you do differently with regards to gender diversity? What facilitators would of helped you to overcome the barriers in your cwereer? (what do you think FrieslandCampina can do?) Two questions have been developed to assist in answering the sub-research question. In order to 'get in the conversation,' an introduction question was also asked. Probing questions were also asked to elicit additional information, as were specific questions to elicit additional information about something previously discussed. The interview script, including all questions, can be found in the appendix .. The order of questions were determined during the interview and varied from interview to interview based on the responses of the females. 3.4 Data Collection Procedure The next step was to collect the primary data through the semi-structured interviews. Table 5 shows how each sub-research question was answered and through which sources. Table 5, Research Question Answer Justification Research Question Source Methods Justification What organizational barriers are experienced or seen within FrieslandCampina by female employees? Primary data Semi- structured interviews through MS Teams In order to understand what causes the imbalance, 21 interviews were conducted that indicated which organizational barriers are experienced or seen. This was analyzed through
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 19 coding using the Atlas.ti tool. The secondary data found within the literature can support these findings. What cultural barriers are experienced or seen within FrieslandCampina by female employees? Primary data Semi- structured interviews through MS Teams In order to know what organizational barriers are withholding women to advance to higher positions, 21 interviews were held with female employees. This was analyzed through coding using the Atlas.ti tool. Furthermore, secondary data can support this. What individual barriers are experienced or seen within FrieslandCampina by female employees? Primary data Semi structured interviews through MS Teams In order to understand what causes the imbalance from a personal perspective, 21 interviews were conducted with female employees. From there the missing facilitators can be identified. Furthermore, the secondary data found can support this. What facilitators can FrieslandCampina implement to decrease the barriers? Primary data / secondary data Analysis of the interviews / secondary data and semi- structured interviews Analyzing the data from the interviews can give an idea of what facilitators are missing to help female employees advance to a higher position. Furthermore, the females gave some examples of facilitators themselves, which can help create accurate facilitators for RFC. Also, the facilitators found in secondary data helped form the facilitators. 3.5 Data Analysis The interviews were conducted by MS teams, which provided flexibility as well as the ability to record the interview and add a live transcription. To ensure validity, each conducted interview was directly transcribed in as much detail as possible. Some answers could be
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 20 checked using the recording to see if what was said was meant and true. All interview transcriptions can be found in appendix G until appendix AA. Many patterns could be identified and classified as a result of the transcriptions. A coding system was used to identify these patterns. Atlas.ti was used to help code the interview transcripts as accurately as possible. In addition, the Atlas.ti tool assisted in converting the information into data and explaining what this data means. The coding process began with open coding, which means simply reading the transcript and coding what is read and appears necessary. These open codes were then matched and merged into relevant groups. After the merging patterns were discovered, and the data could provide the necessary answers. Appendix BB contains a list of all the group codes in Atlas.ti. 3.6 Reliability and Validity Several steps were undertaken to assure this research’ reliability and validity, as well as to ensure that the research is of high quality. Validity ensures that the data gathering, and analysis yield consistent results, while reliability ensures that the data collection and procedures reliably measure what they were designed to measure (Saunders & Lewis, 2012). Because ensuring excellent reliability is qualitative research is difficult, the focus of this study is on the validating portion. Before conducting the actual interviews, a pilot test of the interview was conducted to eliminate mistakes and misconceptions, as well as to tweak the questions to improve validity. The pilot test and the adaptations made can be found in appendix CC. Furthermore, after each interview is transcribed, the script was subjected to a member check. To strengthen the validity, the respondent was sent the transcript to agree on the correctness of the analysis and the degree of interpretation. The email sent to each woman afterwards can be found in appendix DD. Also, since each interviewee was mainly asked the same questions, a certain among of consistency may be achieved to ensure some reliability. 3.7 Ethical Implications Because gender diversity is a sensitive topic, ethical implications were considered at all times during the data collection and analysis phases. One day before each interview, an email is sent to the participant (see appendix EE) in which the confidentiality of the research and the fact
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 21 that it will be anonymous were mentioned. Furthermore, it is stated that if a respondent did not feel comfortable leaving a specific part of the research, they may withdraw at any time. Finally, they are asked if they are okay with the interview being conducted in English as their native language is Dutch. This was repeated at the start of the interview to ensure that the women felt at ease and that everything was handled professionally. In addition to the interview ethics, suitable formal language was utilized, and the contribution of the other writers are recognized through APA referencing.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 22 4. Findings and Analysis The findings of the semi-structured interviews with female employees of the Dutch RFC offices will be highlighted and analyzed in this chapter. These female employees have shared their perspectives on their careers at RFC and the challenges they have experienced. They also offered potential facilitators and provided examples of best and bad practices. The findings are presented by answering each of the sub-research questions, which are separated into subsections. 4.1 Organizational Barriers This first sub-chapter will summarize the data and provide an answer to the first sub-research question: SRQ1: What organizational barriers are experienced or seen within FrieslandCampina by female employees? Figure 6 shows the organizational barriers mentioned by the interviewees, together with the number of times these were mentioned. Figure 6, Organizational Barriers RFC 4.1.1 Maternity Leave and Performance Ratings Everything that surrounds women's maternity leave is one of the leading stated causes of their slower career growth inside RFC, mentioned 27 times in total. Most respondents think that their supervisors did not adequately plan or support their maternity leave and that this lack of planning and support can significantly impact women. However, supervisors' perspectives and attitudes to maternity leave also impact women. “… OK, and by the way, I am pregnant. And I 3 4 27 16 9 0 5 10 15 20 25 30 Inadequate facilties at the office Lack of mentoring and training Maternity Leave Vision on part-time work Bad performance review after maternity leave Amount of times mentioned Barriers Organizational Barriers RFC
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 23 have to say that his reaction was very disappointing because he said 'OK, lucky for you, not for us" (Interviewee 3, appendix I). “And I have experienced that they think it is annoying and that they rather have someone who is not pregnant” (Interviewee 5, appendix K). "The thing is, I got pregnant quite fast after I delivered my first baby, and then three months later, I had to tell 'OK, I am pregnant again. And then I noticed I was really afraid to tell it. I have had one experience with a manager who had one of his direct reports pregnant for the second time, and he said, 'is she pregnant again?" (Interviewee 7, appendix M). Female employees are scared to tell their bosses about their pregnancy because of their employers' reactions and the idea that being pregnant is unpleasant. The male supervisors' lack of understanding of what a pregnancy causes to a woman, both physically and mentally, is also a barrier. This is a barrier since women feel pressured to resume full-time work when they return to work after maternity leave. "It does not help when you have people around you who do not realize what it means for a young woman to get a baby, going on maternity leave, coming back from maternity leave, what this does with your body and mind, and then not giving the space" (Interviewee 12, appendix R). Some women even mentioned that the year they went on maternity leave, they received a worse performance rating than the other years where they were present the whole year. “I have been given an outstanding on all the years that I was not on maternity leave, but in the years that I was on maternity leave, I never got an outstanding” (Interviewee 14 , appendix T). Also, because women take longer maternity leaves than males, there is a disparity. Moreover, women are concerned about falling behind and missing out on employment chances. “I am convinced that when I did not have those breaks, it is only 3-4 months. I could have made one step more, I am convinced" (Interviewee 6, appendix L). Another issue raised concerning maternity leave is the lack of replacements. When most women went on maternity leave, they said they did not have a substitute. Furthermore, if they did find a replacement, they would have to fight for it. Most of their work was dispersed across their teams, adding to their colleagues' workload and producing a sense of guilt. Furthermore,
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 24 it conveys to women that their work is unimportant and that the team can function without them for the period they are gone. “The second time the tasks were divided among a lot of other people, and it does not feel as comfortable because you know that many people have additional work on their plates and I remember tha t leaving was more difficult than” (Interviewee 20 , appendix Z) Furthermore, in FrieslandCampina, the difficulties of replacing pregnant women can send the wrong signal to (hiring) managers. "I told my manager that it is giving me a signal as a hiring manager that if I hire a woman who is likely to become a mother maybe in the next few years, it will give me problems" (Interviewee 4, appendix J). Returning from maternity leave and receiving work from numerous colleagues means that not everything will be taken care of, and women will have to work harder to get back to where they were before. As a result, their careers decelerate during this time. 4.1.2 Vision on Part-Time work The second most significant organizational barrier is the perception of working part-time and the challenges that come with it. Many women believe that taking one day or an afternoon off each week is difficult. Some say the workload is too heavy for a four-day workweek, while others say their coworkers do not consider their free days when scheduling meetings. "And that is also why I am working full time because it was impossible to have that Wednesday afternoon off" (Interviewee 6, appendix L). "It is still not acceptable to work part-time. If you look at the data of FrieslandCampina, I think the percentage man working part-time is very much lower than women because there is also a kind of mindset that that is not possible" (Interviewee 9, appendix O). Also, the interviewees mention that they anticipate themselves having to work full-time if they want to advance to a senior management position. It would be impossible to have a day or an afternoon off for your children. “But I think that if you were in a very senior role, then it is very difficult to have a fixed day off because if the environment around you is not doing that, you always have the feeling that you are missing something during that day” (Interviewee 16 , appendix V).
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 25 Working part-time limits one's career because leading a team is more difficult if you are not present for an entire day. However, the vision on working part-time is varied as some women mention that becoming a senior manager requires full-time employment. However, if everything is well organized at home, this does not have to be a constraint. “Yeah, but it is something I think you have to make at a certain point of decision as well. Kind of thing at a certain moment; it is very difficult to manage roles part-time. So I think that is also kind of if you want to proceed to a certain position, then yes, it includes working full- time as well” (Interviewee 10 , appendix P). 4.1.3 Lack of Mentoring and Training Another barrier is the absence of female mentoring and training. Many women believe RFC supports them, but they believe the corporation could do more to mentor and coach women throughout their careers. “I do think that we can do a lot more i n supporting women in going through certain phases in their life and what that actually means for them and how others experience it. And to coach and mentor ladies in different ways” (Interviewee 12 , appendix R) They all remark that employees have access to training and other initiatives, but it is up to the women to use those chances. This is broadly accepted, although some object because women are more modest than men and may not raise their hands as quickly for these trainings. More information will be provided in the individual obstacles. 4.1.4 Inadequate Facilities at the Office Several women mentioned the poor office and plant facilities for women. When a woman returns from maternity leave and is breastfeeding, she requires time during office hours to pump her breast milk. There are rooms for this purpose in offices, but according to the women, there are far too few of them, and the ones that are there are unclean. “And it was not very well organized with the breastfeeding rooms. It still is not. They ar e mostly occupied or double bookings, and that is really hindering, yeah, your flow of work. Because you try to work on a day and plan those times away for breastfeeding. And if
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 26 the room is occupied, then you are running late on meetings. That is really di sturbing” (Interviewee 15, appendix U).
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 27 4.2 Cultural Barriers This subchapter will focus on answering the second sub-research question: SRQ2: What cultural barriers are experienced or seen within FrieslandCampina by female employees? Multiple barriers were mentioned within interviews, and they are displayed in figure 7. Figure 7, Cultural Barriers RFC 4.2.1 Old Boys' Network and Mini-Me Syndrome The biggest cultural barrier that women face is the existence of the old boys' network (21 times, figure 7) and the mini-me syndrome in upper management. As discussed in the literature review, both the old boys' network and the mini-me syndrome suggest that males want to promote and connect with people who are similar to themselves. When asked why female employees believe there are few women in senior roles, an explanation was given involving an old boys' network and mini-me syndrome. They feel that males within the company would like to network with or promote men similar to them. “Because men select men. Because people select the people they look like” (Interviewee 5 , appendix K). "The leaders are white men with blue blouses and that environment currently what I experienced is that they are quite business-driven. They hire people they like" (Interviewee 14, appendix T). They also note that the top white men have a close network, which is tough to get into as a woman. The males talk to each other highly masculinely and do not include women in their chats. As a result, many women feel insecure, and they may not want to get to the top because of the old boys' club. 11 21 15 19 0 5 10 15 20 25 Social expectations of women Old Boys' Network and Mini-Me Syndrome Male Vision Discrimination and Sterotyping Amount of times mentioned Barriers Cultural Barriers RFC
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 28 “But I think a lot is to do with the old boys club. Which I really see now in F rieslandCampina’s top as well. It is an old boys club. They are all grey old men, white men. And they all have a very classic wife at home who does not work or partially works, so they have to do nothing. So it is also a bit scary in a way because I can grow at least two levels that I really want. But if then I would be in an old boys club, they have a different language, and you are not. I am not sure if you are easily, well, warmly welcomed. They say you will, but I am not sure if it feels that way" (Interviewee 11, appendix Q). Women are also less likely to speak up if something goes wrong because men in top positions have so much perceived authority within the company. Women do not want to be labeled as "annoying ladies" because of their complaints. Then not get a promotion as a result of it. “But I did not say anything to them because I feel like it could hurt my career. Because they have so much power that in the next people planning meeting, they say ‘no, this is a difficult lady’” (Interviewee 18 , appendix X). 4.2.2 Discrimination and Stereotyping Discrimination and Stereotyping is another cultural obstacle. This barrier is mentioned 19 times (figure 7). Discrimination and stereotyping is mentioned more frequently by females in technical functions than by females in HR functions (see analysis). There is still a perception that working in technical functions is not a good fit for women. “I have a very technical function, and I am not very technical. But sometimes I think that the other males are also not very technical, but from them, it is more accepted, and for me, it is expected. That sometimes, they say, 'oh, she will not understand that. And I think, no, I can find it, I have Wikipedia, I am smart enough so I can find it" (Interviewee 5, appendix K). In addition to this misconception, discriminatory comments from male coworkers in the manufacturing plants are common. “Do I have a bad experience on, yeah the production, of course. Or jokes ‘Just put your shirt open and you will manage it’” (Interviewee 9 , appendix O ). “And often I have heard the question, ‘could you please bring me a cup of coffee?” (Interviewee 1, appendix G).
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 29 It is stated that the culture at the manufacturing plants is more complex than that in the office. "But there is a kind of hard culture on well again. 'Ohh, do you have to stay home and work from home again with the sick child?' And I think that is more in the production area than it is in the office area" (Interviewee 9, appendix O). Furthermore, discrimination occurs when female employees have children and wish to advance in their careers. They said they are frequently questioned about whether they will be able to balance the new work with having children. While the females comment that this is something that would never be asked of a man. “I have had it more often. Also, when I applied for this job two years ago, they asked me, 'so, as you have two children, will you be able to manage this position?' But in my opinion, they would never ask a man. So I do not think that they meant to hurt me, but it is still so normal to say these things that they do say it” (Interviewee 18 , appendix X). It even goes as far as women being denied promotions because of their pregnancy. “It was all good intentions, but I felt like I was treated differently and not given the same chance. That would not have been the conversation with the man if he would get a child" (Interviewee 8, appendix N). “And I have to specify, actually at my first pregnancy because I got discriminated when I came back from my pregnancy leave. I did not receive the promotion that was promised to me beforehand” (Interviewee 13 , appendix S). 4.2.3 Male Vision Many women say the organization has good intentions for developing a gender-balanced workplace, but that the men do not genuinely get it. Because of statements made by high- ranking men, some ladies' ambitions to advance in their careers are harmed because they do not want to be surrounded by 'angry white men.' "Are all the male leaders fully convinced that men and women are fully on the same level? I do not know" (Interviewee 3, appendix I). "The men do not get it, and they do not see it on the picture" (Interviewee 5, appendix K). Furthermore, it is stated that men do not regard women or their schedules regarding meetings.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 30 “I did kind of experience myself, and I am in a corporate role, where typically there are more older males around. So all the meetings start at 8 in the morning, which is terrible for me because I am trying to drop off the kids in the morning. So you are always late for a meeting, and then the majority is there, so they do not reschedule” (Interviewee 10 , appendix P). It is also claimed that, because there are many males in the senior management positions, and therefore, being a woman in a man's world, there is little emphasis on personal difficulties, and the emphasis is primarily on performance and outcomes. Females have a hard time finding their place and performing at their best. “I definitely do experience that I am fully in a man’s world. There is a lot of pressure on performance and very little on the feeling side, and I am quite a feeling person. So for me, it is quite important that I also get some attention on the person, and that is really what I am currently facing. It is lacking in this regi on of the company” ( Interviewee 14 , appendix T). Women feel that if the men at the top of the organization genuinely want to tackle the gender imbalance, it can be done. However, they are not sure that changing it is genuinely what men want and believe in. “I think culture is changed by the leaders themselves. So I feel that it is more a push of HR and not really something that the business wants. So if I talk to the managers of our business groups, they are not convinced. I think that they should change. They have to really want it and start from there." (Interviewee 14, appendix T). 4.2.4 Social expectations of women Finally, the expectations that society has of women is a prevalent cultural barrier in which women believe they are expected to care for their children and play a more significant role at home. When a man wishes to work longer hours, the woman is expected to work fewer hours to be with the children. This is supported by the social role theory (Koenig & Eagly, 2014). As mentioned in the literature review, this could also be related to the Dutch culture, which prioritizes a healthy work-life balance, according to Hofstede’s Insights (202 1).
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 31 I see also in my management team, the woman taking a much bigger carrying role at home. So you work the same kind of working hours as the men, but they are coming home and then dinner is ready. They do not often do a lot anymore. And you see that the women have kind of their job still when they are going home (Interviewee 19, appendix Y). Some women in The Netherlands are also shamed when they return to work full-time following maternity leave. People will frown and judge female employees for it, making them feel insecure about their actions. "I think the culture within The Netherlands working full time as a woman, people have an opinion about it, and that makes it also difficult if you are coming from maternity leave, and you are saying that you will be working five days a week, then people look at you” (Interviewee 19 , appendix Y).
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 32 4.3 Individual Barriers The last group of barriers investigated within RFC are the individual barriers. Therefore, this chapter will answer the third sub-research question: SRQ3: What cultural barriers are experienced or seen within FrieslandCampina by female employees? In Figure 8, the individual barriers stated in the interviews are underlined. Figure 8, Individual Barriers RFC 4.3.1 Lack of Confidence One big barrier for women taking the next step in their careers is themselves. Women are less likely to raise their hands and claim a promotion because of their modesty. The interviewees expressed a strong desire to overcome this hurdle. They recognize in themselves the feeling that they must be at least 80% fit for a new role. They claim that their male counterparts are more self-assured and will speak up sooner and louder. “It truly impacts the chances of women to grow in the organization because they do not put themselves out there. They do not put themselves in the spotlight. They are not the first ones to raise their hands- and to say, 'I will pick this up', and therefore they are less visible. And women also tend to think that if they work really hard that their efforts will be seen, and that is enough. It is just not enough” (Interviewee 12 , appendix R). Many female senior managers said they had to be clear about their goals and have the confidence to speak up and advocate for themselves. HGRL20+ women also stated that they must help other women to have the confidence to take the following steps in their careers. The 4 21 15 0 5 10 15 20 25 Imposter Syndrome Lack of Confidence Own Choices Amount of times mentioned Barriers Individual Barriers RFC
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 33 other female colleagues have noticed that the women in senior leadership roles are 'power ladies' who exude confidence. “But I still think that the women, and I have a lot of conversations in my HR role, do not have the confidence. And you really have to give them the confidence that they are ready. And I think the people on the HGRL22+ are the powerful ladies that dare to stand up and raise their hands. But you really have to raise your hand to get there” (Interviewee 6 , appendix L). Women who speak up and are secure in their ambitions and abilities will rise to the top, according to the vision. However, only a tiny percentage of women possess this self-assurance. Overall, women's lack of confidence, compared to men's, is causing a slower career path. “And I think that we have a kind of a culture where we really want to be 1 00% sure that people are ready for the next step, especially with women. They are typically not the ones that are raising their hands except for a few others. And that makes it very hard for them to grow as fast as they could do” (Interviewee 6 , appendix L). 4.3.2 Own Choices One point that is also brought up is whether or not women desire to be in positions of power. Women believe that there are fewer females in leadership roles because women in The Netherlands prefer to over-balance work and personal life. Women are less likely to want to work a 60-hour workweek and may be less eager for high-level jobs at RFC. As a result, the individual barriers include the barrier of own choices. "No, if there was something holding you back within FrieslandCampina, it is yourself. So it is either because you deliberately choose to make a different choice. Because you do not have the ambition or the timing is not right.” (Interviewee 21, appendix AA). "I think it is also the fact that less females want to be in executive positions than males. Because we know what it takes, and we are just consciously making the choice of not doing that because we do not think it is worth it. So maybe a lot of the women have children and know there is more in life than only work” (Interviewee 17 , appendix W).
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 34 4.3.3 Imposter Syndrome The imposter syndrome, in which women develop male behaviors because they believe male traits are valued more, is the final individual barrier mentioned. Some women believe that to advance in their careers, they must act more masculine. "So I have worked a couple of years in sales, and I have also worked in finance. Two kinds of disciplines which are quite male-orientated and I think the biggest challenge in those environments is not to become one of them" (Interviewee 19, appendix Y). Because not being yourself would not help you stay in a top position, ladies say they should be more proud of what they can contribute as women.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 35 4.4 Facilitators At the end of the interview, women were asked what RFC could do to support them and their careers. The facilitators that were mentioned can be seen in figure 9. This chapter will answer the last sub research question: SRQ4 What facilitators can FrieslandCampina implement to decrease the barriers? Figure 9, Facilitators RFC As can be seen, giving role models and strong managers who can assist women in their professions is the most critical facilitator that RFC can provide for them to advance in their jobs and overcome the challenges mentioned earlier. According to the interviewees, having role models in senior management positions who can share their insights on how they got to today is beneficial. Furthermore, most women state that they would not be where they are today without the help of their (internal) sponsors. They highlight having competent managers or other coworkers who saw their potential and assisted them in taking the following stages. As a result, this is another essential facilitator that RFC can assist with, ensuring that ladies have sponsors or mentors within the firm. This is in line with female empowerment, as the women state that having a mentor or good boss who empowers women to take the next step and speak up can go a long way toward getting more women to the top. Since COVID-19, women have had more flexibility in their working hours and the ability to work from home. The women say this is quite beneficial when it comes to having children and balancing a job and personal life. Also, not having to work 9 to 5 but instead being free to plan your hours how you want is incredibly beneficial and would make it simpler to work the hours while still having time for other things. 19 13 13 10 12 8 0 2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20 Role models Good Manager Flexibility Quota/KPI Support maternity/paternity leave Empower females Amount of times mentioned Barriers Facilitators RFC
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 36 Furthermore, maternity leave support and the availability of replacements make it easier for women to return to work after having a child. Females also feel that RFC could do more to encourage men to take paternity leave, resulting in a more balanced leave schedule and paternity leave becoming less of a female activity. Also, role models for paternity leave could show fathers that staying at home with the kids is normal and acceptable. Finally, a firm objective and KPI were mentioned by a few women. This objective will prompt quick action, and people will begin to make an impact on their own. Making it clear that all managers, for example, must hit a specific KPI in order to receive a bonus will encourage employees to take action and think about women more frequently. Other interviewees, on the other hand, feel that positive discrimination will not assist since they believe that women should be in high positions because they want to be there, not because of their gender to meet a quota. “I have had great conversations with my friends because I think you should select the person that is best for the position, but I think to break these boundaries it helps. It is needed to have these targets, and I hope at one point we do not need them anymore" (Interviewee 7, appendix M).
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 37 4.5 Analysis Because the respondents come from various departments, have different ages, and Hay grades it is valuable to take a closer look to see if there are any notable differences in their experiences. 4.5.1 Department Figure 10 depicts the distribution by the department. It is important to note that there are not the same amount of respondents in each department; for example, in Supply Chain / IT, there were seven women interviewed. While in HR, there were five women interviewed. Despite the fact that there were more women interviewed in supply chain, that department still has significantly more cultural barriers than the others, even if the number of respondents were the same. Figure 10, Distribution Barriers per Department Discrimination, stereotyping, and male vision are three times higher in the supply chain than in the rest of the departments. This could be explained by the large number of men employed in these positions. As shown in the table 6, in The Netherlands, men perform 83 percent of supply chain functions, while women make up only 16 percent of the workforce. As a result, women are significantly underrepresented. Table 6, Supply Chain and Human Resources NL Gender Distribution Total employees Males Females Undisclosed Supply Chain NL 5.191 4.292 (83%) 810 (16%) 88 (1%) Human Resources NL 206 52 (25%) 146 (71%) 8 (4%)
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 38 Also shown in the table 6, is the gender distribution in HR. As can be seen this function has more females than males. Females outnumber males in the HR department by 71 percent. Moreover, the HR respondents had fewer experiences with stereotyping and discrimination and male vision barriers. As a result, there may be a correlation between the number of males in a department and the cultural challenges that women face in their careers. If there are more men present, the cultural issues increase for women. Furthermore, together with HR, the issues surrounding maternity leave for supply chain are both double than in commercial and R&D. This is interesting as HR has one respondent fewer than commercial and R&D. As for the other barriers, they seem to be proportionate for each department and differentiate not as significant as the aforementioned ones. Therefore, those barriers are more general and can be found in most departments within the company. 4.5.2 Age The distribution of obstacles by age group is shown in figure 11. Again, it is worth noting that there is a variance in the number of interviewees in each group. The age range of 40 to 45 years old has the most interviewees, but also the greatest barriers stated, as seen in the figure. Despite the fact that there are (often more than) double the number of interviewees in this age range, the old boys' network and mini-me syndrome are discussed about ten times more than in the 30-35 age group. The old boys' network and mini-me syndrome appear to be more prevalent among those aged 45 to 50. Figure 11, Distribution Barriers per Age Furthermore, the perception of part-time employment is more favorable in the 40-45 age group, when working part-time, appears to be more difficult, and is more frequently associated with a "lack of ambition." Even though it decreases at the 45-50 years old. The male vision barrier, as well as the maternity leave barrier, is greater in the 40-45 age bracket. Maternity barriers appear to rise with age, as seen by the fact that the group of 35-40 years old has identified maternity leave as a barrier seven times, although having only three interviewees and thereby fewer
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 39 interviewees than the first age group. Another intriguing finding is that the first age group (30- 35) has been subjected to the greatest amount of discrimination and stereotyping. This is more frequently mentioned in this group than in others. Within the other barriers, the differences appear to be minor and are shared equally. 4.5.3 Hay grade The final analysis will be conducted on the various Hay grades. Figure 12 shows that women in Hay grade 18 are more likely to face discrimination and stereotyping, as well as poor performance assessments following maternity leave. These women, along with the ones in HGRL19, seem to have the biggest problems with maternity leave. The vision on part-time employment is higher in higher Hay grades, which is an interesting finding. Working part-time appears to be more challenging for women in higher jobs. Women in HGRL22+ occupations may have the most difficulty in meeting people's expectations of being a caretaker at home while still working. Figure 12, Distribution Barriers per Hay Grade 4.5.4 Conclusion As a result, women between the ages of 35 and 45 have the most difficulties managing work and personal life during maternity leave. The technical functions are the ones that have to deal with the largest cultural hurdles. Discrimination, stereotyping, and maternity leave are all more challenging for the lower Hay grades. The higher Hay grades, on the other hand, have greater difficulty with the old boys' network and the society's expectations of women. As a result, each group has unique challenges, which appear to vary as women advance in their jobs.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 40 5. Discussion and Conclusion Within this chapter the findings will be summarized and discussed, compared to previous research, and the limitations will be highlighted. Furthermore, this research will be concluded by answering the main research question. 5.1 Summary of findings Women face numerous barriers to career advancement, reflecting the underrepresentation of women in senior management. This research has provided insight into the barriers that females in the RFC face as they advance in their careers. The three overruling barriers, as mentioned, being organizational, cultural, and individual. For organizational barriers, everything surrounding maternity leave is a significant hindrance to women. The females state that they are not well supported during this process due to the lack of replacements, flexibility, and also the pressure when coming back is making it difficult to restart quietly. Furthermore, the vision on part-time work is preventing women from advancing due to the work pressure and the inability to take a day or afternoon off when in a position of power, which creates difficulty in balancing work and private life. The most significant cultural barriers is the existence the old b oys’ network and discrimination and stereotyping. According to the women, the old boys’ network appears visible within the top of RFC which creates a reluctance for women to join. Furthermore, what appears to happen, more frequently within technical functions and the lower Hay grades, is the discrimination and stereotyping. Women seem to be having a harder time when more men are present and that is damaging their self- confidence, creating an even more difficult path to top management. Lastly, there are individual barriers in which women themselves seem to be holding themselves back from advancing. This can be due to the fact that they start behaving like men, lack of confidence, or making a choice to step out of a career or not wanting to grow any further. Women particularly expressed doubts about pursuing a senior management role, citing the perceived work pressure and the fact that taking care of the children would be more difficult. This barrier may play a more predominant role than thought of before. As a result, many obstacles are encountered, but this does leave RFC with room for improvement. The females interviewed also provided good examples of what helped them grow and what they would like to see more of. The importance of having good role models within the company and good management support goes a long way toward assisting women in reaching the top.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 41 5.2 Implications for Theory According to previous study, women confront numerous obstacles when attempting to develop their careers. The data from the interviews back up this theory, and when compared to past research, it is clear to see how similar they are. The majority of the barriers discovered in secondary research match those found in RFC. On the other hand, previous research focuses on the organizational factors that influence women's career advancement (Elaqua et al., 2009). While the interview data suggest that social factors are even more influential. The significance of culture and background in The Netherlands makes it harder for women to advance. Women are limited by the stereotype of women being family caregivers who work part-time (Koenig & Eagly, 2014). It also influences their conscious decisions not to advance to senior management positions as women struggle to find work-life balance. The women's perspectives on gender diversity are intriguing to take away from the interviews. Even while they see progress in gender diversity, they all agree that there is still much more to be done and that the long-term impact will be more significant. Surprisingly, some respondents have believe that a 50/50 workforce in top management is impossible to achieve. The primary reason for this is that women are more naturally inclined to care for children than men. As a result, working part-time or leaving the workforce may be necessary. The respondents also notice that women are more likely to work part-time after having children. Maternity leave and the subsequent decisions seem to be career-defining moments, which were not emphasized in the secondary literature. Furthermore, the presence of an old boys’ network, which was mentioned in previous research, influences whom the men at the top of the company might choose to promote (Allemand et al., 2021). How ever, through the interviews, the presence of these old boys’ networks also influences the decision of women themselves. Women who see an old boys’ network at the top of the company might decide not to advance to that point to avoid being part of a man’s w orld and being included in the conversations. Moreover, what was not mentioned in previous research is the different experiences women have in different departments and positions. As mentioned in the analysis, many women in technical functions have struggled more in their careers with discrimination, while women in more ‘social’ roles have faced significantly fewer struggles. This could be due to the fact that
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 42 more male colleagues are present in technical jobs, however, that connection was not previously mentioned within the secondary data. Also, the differences in ages and Hay grades add to a more thorough research in which women around the age of getting children (or having young children) face more struggles. When comparing the facilitators mentioned by the females within the interviews and the facilitators mentioned in the secondary data, not many differences can be found. Both mention the use of mentors and role models as very crucial. Furthermore, more support during and definitely after maternity leave can really help women. The only thing not mentioned in secondary data is the objective / KPI. This, as previously mentioned, seems to be more of a controversial approach of which the long-term effectivity has not been (yet) researched. 5.3 Limitations and Future Research This research includes 21 interviews with female professionals across different departments within RFC. Due to the fact that only women in the Dutch offices were interviewed, it is not possible to generalize this for all women within RFC. However, this research does give insights on how several women tend to have homogenous experiences and visions within the company and their careers. Based on the results, it could be interesting to expand this research by conducting a survey among other women across different countries. Questioning women at a larger scale would make it possible to align the insights and interpret the results more generally. Furthermore, because the coding method was only carried out by one researcher, the results may be skewed by the researcher's interpretation. Specific nuances in the data, for example, may not have been picked up as a result of individual data analysis. Moreover, this research examines the impact of many factors to women’s career advancement . This does not rule out the possibility of other factors influencing female career success that have not been identified in the data. Additionally, it should be noted that only females were interviewed for this study. This study did not include any males, and because males have an unquestionable influence on this experience, gathering data from just females is considered as a limitation. However, it does leave room for future research and add interesting insights. Furthermore, because the departments were divided into technical functions, social functions, and financial functions, the number of women interviewed in each specific department is uneven (e.g., only one woman in IT and Legal). This is also because some women did not
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 43 respond to the interview invitation, resulting that some departments have more interviewees than others. Therefore, these limitations can be taken into account when doing future research regarding this topic. Gathering various responses from different genders, and ethnicities could create a more thorough insight into this issue. 5.4 Conclusion Overall, this research aimed to give insights into the struggles that women face and experience within the Dutch RFC offices and plants when progressing in their careers. It gave women the opportunity to share their experiences and feel heard. Furthermore, it made sure that the real troubles of women within the Dutch offices and plants are highlighted and fitting recommendations can be given to RFC to support the women better and start creating a more gender-balanced top. Where women can feel more at home and start performing at their best potential, which mentioned by previous research, has a very beneficial impact on a business (Brahma et al,. 2020). This study therefore contributes to the current research of gender diversity in organizations within The Netherlands. To answer the main research question, how can FrieslandCampina increase gender diversity (% of women present) in senior management positions to achieve >30% women in 2024? looking at the results of this research, RFC can start by decreasing the mentioned organizational, cultural, and individual barriers by implementing several facilitators. Facilitators like creating a role modeling program in which women (and men) can share their experiences on how they overcame barriers and are balancing a work-life balance, a maternity plan which managers can follow, more and better facilities at the offices and plants for new mothers, start a more thorough research into the discrimination of women within the plants in The Netherlands, and of course hire and promote more women in higher positions. These facilitators can help to get to the 30% in 2024, and more in the future.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 44 6. Recommendations Within this last chapter, the recommendations will be given to how RFC can increase the amount of women in senior management positions, through decreasing certain barriers. Due to the high amount of barriers experienced by women within RFC, it has been decided to recommend three initiatives that will have the most impact, instead of giving a facilitator for each barrier found. 6.1 Follow-up Research into Discrimination within Dutch Plants An important takeaway from this research was the discrimination and stereotyping, which happened most frequently in the Dutch plants. As mentioned by Landrine & Klonoff (1998) discrimination can have a negative physical and psychological effect. In which women are more likely to leave the organization. As a result, it is suggested that further study must be conducted in this sector of the organization. To determine the challenges that these women confront and the magnitude of these concerns, a survey can be sent to all female employees at Dutch factories (see appendix FF). When the survey findings are in, a suitable facilitator must be put in place to support the women in the plants. Creating training and awareness for plant managers to prevent discrimination on the job might be one of them. Table 7 shows a prioritized action list for this recommendation, with timeframes for each activity to aid in the investigation of discrimination at Dutch plants. The actions are simplified to ensure that the company itself can design the research to preference. This research will ideally encourage women to continue in technical roles in order to advance in their professions. This might lead to more women working in higher-level technical positions, where there appears to be a considerable gender divide. Table 7, Action List for Investigation Discrimination against Women within Dutch plants Measure Actions (simplified) Timeframe Follow up research into discrimination within Dutch plants Create a survey in which females can answer anonymously 1 st till 15 th of August 2022 (2 weeks) Test survey with women in the office to check reliability and validity 15 th till 31 st of August 2022 (2 weeks)
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 45 Adapt survey to feedback September 1 st till 8 th 2022 (1 week) Send out survey to sample (females in Dutch plants) and promote the research to the plant managers September 8 th till 30 th 2022 (3 weeks) Collect and analyze data October 1 st till 31 st 2022 (1 month) Create and implement a fitting facilitator November 1 st 2022 till January 1 st 2023 (2 months) 6.2 Better Support Maternity Leave Everything around maternity leave was one of the most mentioned barriers or hindrances that women faced in their professions. Managers appear oblivious to the influence their actions, support, and flexibility can have on a woman during this stage of her life. Collings, Freeney, and van der Werff (2018) agree, emphasizing the significance of having a clear plan for when an employee goes on maternity leave. They also emphasize the value of having a manager and their assistance throughout this period. A suitable guide and checklist for managers is constructed using the results of the previous research by Collings et al. (2018) as well as the information provided by the females in the primary research. RFC should apply this maternity leave manager's guide so that managers are also prepared if a female member of their team becomes pregnant. The guide and checklist may be found in appendix GG, it offers advice for managers on what to do before, during, and after maternity leave. It also contains a checklist that managers may use to ensure that all procedures are followed and that the process is pleasant for both parties. Furthermore, numerous women indicated in the interviews that few women appear to have substitutes when they go on maternity leave. This is a more difficult situation since it is a policy. RFC should look at its replacement policy to see if it can be made more flexible so that supervisors will not view having a pregnant employee is a burden.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 46 Table 8 contains an action list to assist RFC in implementing the guide and checklist, as well as a timeline to support the process. Table 8, Action List Supporting Women better within their Maternity Leave Measure Actions (simplified) Timeframe Better support women before, during and after maternity leave Check the example guide and checklist within this research, and add the hyperlinks to relevant materials. Adapt to preference. Start immediately to increase impact, until September 1 st 2022 (3 months) Create awareness around this topic to managers (e.g., sending out emails regarding the poor support sometimes experienced by women) September 1 st till 15 th 2022 (2 weeks) Make sure that the guide and checklist is distributed to the managers. September 15 th till 30 th 2022 (2 weeks) Create the follow-up survey if the guide and checklist are useful and to see if anything needs to be adapted (from the managers point of view / experience) Measure after 6 months on March 30 th 2023 6.3 Role Model Event The final recommendation revolves around the necessity of having role models. Which was a facilitator that has been cited the most by women. Previous studies have also shown this as a key component in assisting women in achieving higher jobs (Babic & Hansez, 2021). Women feel more at ease knowing that they are not the only ones working full-time and may benefit from other (fe)males' experiences. This method may also be used by males who are seeking for a role model. As a result, one possibility is to organize an event where different speakers would share their experiences, which can be from internal or external employees.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 47 Women and men can sign up to listen the speakers and then participate in a meet and greet where they can ask questions and converse. This are also a good moment for women to look for sponsors or mentors who can assist them advance in their jobs. An action list is generated in order to make this event happen, and it is shown in table 9 below. Table 9, Action List Role Model Event Measure Actions (simplified) Timeframe Role Model event - Find volunteers to help organize this event July 2022 Find Speakers - Email women who are in leadership positions within the company to ask for their willingness. August 1 st till October 1 st 2022 (2 months) - Start the conversation with people and ask who would be an inspiring speaker to have a talk at the event Practicalities - Book the dairytorium (event place) for an afternoon / evening September 1 st 2022 - Create planning of the event (who will speak when) October 1 st till November 1 st 2022 (1 month) - Create promotional material to promote the event to all employees - Make sure to leave time at the end for a meet and greet - Arrange beverages and décor for the event After the event - Send out survey to analyze the experience of the guests and if the event should be repeated When the event is finished
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 48 References Ahmad, S. (2016). Family or Future in the Academy? Review of Educational Research , 87 (1), 204 239. https://doi.org/10.3102/0034654316631626 Allemand, I., Bédard, J., Brullebaut, B., & Deschênes, J. (2021). Role of Old Boys’ Networks and Regulatory Approaches in Selection Processes for Female Directors. British Journal of Management , 33 (2), 784 805. https://doi.org/10.1111/1467-8551.12485 Babic, A., & Hansez, I. (2021). The Glass Ceiling for Women Managers: Antecedents and Consequences for Work-Family Interface and Well-Being at Work. Frontiers in Psychology , 12 , 1 17. https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2021.618250 Brahma, S., Nwafor, C., & Boateng, A. (2020). Board gender diversity and firm performance: The UK evidence. International Journal of Finance & Economics , 26 (4), 5704 5719. https://doi.org/10.1002/ijfe.2089 Brown, S. E., & Battle, J. S. (2019). Ostracizing targets of workplace sexual harassment before and after the #MeToo movement. Equality, Diversity and Inclusion: An International Journal , 39 (1), 53 67. https://doi.org/10.1108/edi-09-2018-0162 Burnford, J. (2019, August 15). Does a lack of confidence hinder a woman's career progression? Management Today. Retrieved March 1, 2022, from https://www.managementtoday.co.uk/does-lack-confidence-hinder-womans-career progression/women-in-business/article/1593974 CBS. (2021, July 15). Emancipatiemonitor . Retrieved February 23, 2022, from https://digitaal.scp.nl/emancipatiemonitor2020/komen-er-meer-vrouwen-in topfuncties/ Collings, D., Freeney, Y., & van der Werff, L. (2018). How Companies Can Ensure Maternity Leave Doesn’t Hurt Women’s Careers. Harvard Business Review , 9 13. https://web-p-ebscohost
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 49 com.nlhhg.idm.oclc.org/ehost/pdfviewer/pdfviewer?vid=28&sid=3ee0eb45-10de 4906-b28b-4a54eca728ce%40redis Elacqua, T. C., Beehr, T. A., Hansen, C. P., & Webster, J. (2009). MANAGERS’ BELIEFS ABOUT THE GLASS CEILING: INTERPERSONAL AND ORGANIZATIONAL FACTORS. Psychology of Women Quarterly , 33 (3), 285 294. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1471-6402.2009.01501.x Frase- Blunt, M. (2003). Moving Past “Mini - Me.” HR Magazine , 48 (11), 95 98. https://web p-ebscohost.com.nlhhg.idm.oclc.org/ehost/pdfviewer/pdfviewer?vid= 6&sid=1976923c-475f 4987-9c08-625f7a946058%40redis FrieslandCampina. (2022). Nourishing by nature - FrieslandCampina . Retrieved May 2, 2022, from https://www.frieslandcampina.com/about-frieslandcampina/ Hamilton-Volpe, E., & Marcinkus- Murphy, W. (2011). Married professional women’s career exit: integrating identity and social networks. Gender in Management: An International Journal , 26 (1), 57 83. https://doi.org/10.1108/17542411111109318 Hideg, I., Krstic, A., Trau, R. N. C., & Zarina, T. (2018). The unintended consequences of maternity leaves: How agency interventions mitigate the negative effects of longer legislated maternity leaves. Journal of Applied Psychology , 103 (10), 1155 1164. https://doi.org/10.1037/apl0000327 Hofstede Insights. (2021, June 21). Country Comparison . Retrieved May 23, 2022, from https://www.hofstede-insights.com/country-comparison/the-netherlands/ Hoobler, J. M., Wayne, S. J., & Lemmon, G. (2009). Bosses’ Perceptions of Family -Work Conflict and Women’s Promo tability: Glass Ceiling Effects. Academy of Management Journal , 52 (5), 939 957. https://doi.org/10.5465/amj.2009.44633700 Ibarra, H., Ely, R., & Kolb, D. (2013). Women Rising: The Unseen Barriers. Harvard Business Review , 68 (3), 62 66. https://web-p-ebscohost
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 50 com.nlhhg.idm.oclc.org/ehost/pdfviewer/pdfviewer?vid=17&sid=3ee0eb45-10de 4906-b28b-4a54eca728ce%40redis Koenig, A. M., & Eagly, A. H. (2014). Evidence for the social role theory of stereotype content: Observations of groups’ roles shape stereotypes. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology , 107 (3), 371 392. https://doi.org/10.1037/a0037215 Krishna, A., & Orhun, A. Y. (2021). Gender (Still) Matters in Business School. Journal of Marketing Research , 59 (1), 191 210. https://doi.org/10.1177/0022243720972368 Landrine, H., & Klonoff, E. (1998). Discrimination against women: prevalence, consequences, remedies. Choice Reviews Online , 35 (05), 35 3025. https://doi.org/10.5860/choice.35-3025 Ministerie van Justitie en Veiligheid. (2021, October 6). New legislation will improve gender diversity on corporate boards . Government.Nl. Retrieved February 22, 2022, from https://www.government.nl/latest/news/2021/09/29/new-legislation-will-improve gender-diversity-on-corporate-boards Mseka, A. (2017). Improving Gender Diversity at the Workplace. Advisor Today , 21 22. https://web-p-ebscohost.com.nlhhg.idm.oclc.org/ehost/pdfviewer/ pdfviewer?vid=26&sid=3ee0eb45-10de 4906-b28b-4a54eca728ce%40redis OECD. (2019, September 11). Part-time and Partly Equal: Gender and Work in the Netherlands . Retrieved February 25, 2022, from https://www.oecd ilibrary.org/sites/204235cf en/1/2/1/index.html?itemId=/content/publication/204235cf en&_csp_=09d72514f082d2c9738e78b56d4a500c&itemIGO=oecd&itemContentTy e=book
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 51 Perry, J. L., Mesch, D., & Paarlberg, L. (2006). Motivating Employees in a New Governance Era: The Performance Paradigm Revisited. Public Administration Review , 66 (4), 505 514. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1540-6210.2006.00611.x Pierog, A., & Seliverstova, Y. (2021). A THEORETICAL STUDY ON GLOBAL WORKFORCE DIVERSITY MANAGEMENT, ITS BENEFITS AND CHALLENGES. Cross-Cultural Management Journal , 23 (1), 117 124. https://seaopenresearch.eu/Journals/articles/CMJ2021_I1_8.pdf Sandberg, S. (2013). Lean In: Women, Work, and the Will to Lead (1st ed.) [E-book]. Knopf. Saunders, M. N. K., & Lewis, P. (2011). Doing Research in Business and Management: an essential guide to planning your project (1st ed.). Pearson Education Canada. Sethi, R. (2022). IS THERE a CORRELATION BETWEEN FINANCIAL INDEPENDENCE AND EMPOWERMENT IN THE LIVES OF WOMEN? International Journal of Social Science and Economic Research , 07 (01), 133 139. https://ijsser.org/2022files/ijsser_07__11.pdf Showkat, S. (2021). The Relationship Between Glass Ceiling and Women’s Performa nce in the Banking Sector: An Empirical Study. IUP Journal of Organizational Behavior , 20 (4), 1 21. https://web-p-ebscohost.com.nlhhg.idm.oclc.org/ehost/pdfviewer/ pdfviewer?vid=19&sid=3ee0eb45-10de 4906-b28b-4a54eca728ce%40redis Statista. (2022, May 9). Population of the Netherlands 2021, by gender . Retrieved February 24, 2022, from https://www.statista.com/statistics/519796/population-of-the netherlands-by-gender/ Woolley, A., & Malone, T. (2011). What makes a team smarter? More women. Harvard Business Review , 89 (6), 32 33. https://web-p-ebscohost com.nlhhg.idm.oclc.org/ehost/pdfviewer/pdfviewer?vid=13&sid=3ee0eb45-10de 4906-b28b-4a54eca728ce%40redis
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 52 Appendices Appendix A RFC Employee Data in The Netherlands Within table 10 the amount of RFC employees working within the Dutch offices and plants can be seen. Table 10, Amount of Employees in The Netherlands Total employees RFC Employees in The Netherlands % 24.090 9.398 39% Furthermore within table 11 the amount of senior management roles within The Netherlands can be seen. Table 11, Amount of Senior Management Roles within The Netherlands Total senior management (HGRL20+) roles Located in The Netherlands % 357 206 58%
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 53 Appendix B Table with Female vs Male Distribution RFC and The Netherlands In table 12, the male versus female employee distribution can be seen of the whole company. The focus is marked red, as can be seen the drop from HGRL19 to HGRL 20 is 8% and from HGRL21 to HGRL22 is 9%. Table 12, Male vs Female Distribution RFC Also the distribution of female and male employees within The Netherlands can be seen in table 13. Here the drop in females from HGRL 19 to HGRL20 is 12%. Table 13, Distribution Female vs Male The Netherlands Hay grade Total employees Amount of female employees Amount of male employees Undisclosed % women % Men 18 697 288 405 4 41% 58% 19 406 145 261 0 36% (-5%) 64% (+6%) 20 162 45 115 2 28% (-8%) 71% (+7%) 21 107 32 75 0 30% (+2%) 70% (-1%) 22 42 9 33 0 21% (-9%) 79% (+9%) 23+ 46 8 38 0 17% (-4%) 83% (+4%) Hay grade Total Employees Female Male Undisclosed % Female % Male 18 347 137 206 4 39% 59% 19 265 94 171 0 35% (-4%) 64% (+5%) 20 78 18 58 2 23% (-12%) 74% (+10%) 21 67 20 47 0 30% (+7%) 70% (-4%) 22 29 7 22 0 24% (-6%) 76% (+6%) 23+ 32 7 25 0 22% (-2%) 78% (+2%)
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 54 Appendix C Potential Ratings Females RFC Another interesting finding that correlates with the problem of gender imbalance is the gender differences with potential ratings. Once a year employees receive a potential rating from their managers. The ratings that can be given and their descriptions are mentioned in figure 13. Figure 13, Potential Ratings RFC When looking at the potential ratings of both the male and the female employees, females, on average, receive better potential ratings than their male counterparts. In table 14 the average potential ratings are highlighted. It can be seen that female employees receive twice as much the Top Leadership Potential rating (TLP) (12% vs 6%). In the description of the TLP it is mentioned that the people receiving this rating has the capacity and ambition to develop the qualities required for significantly more challenging and senior leadership roles in a fast-track manner. Therefore it is interesting to find that women receive this potential rating, but the presence of women still decreases when the Hay grade increases. Table 14, Potential Rating Male and Female RFC No rating Concern Core Talent Expert Potential Growth Potential Top Leadership Potential Men 28% 2% 39% 7% 18% 6% Women 28% 1% (-1%) 29% (-10%) 7% 22% (+4%) 12% (+6%)
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 55 Appendix D Facilitators Below in table 15 the proposed facilitators applied to the barriers found in previous research can be seen. Table 15, Facilitators Overview Barrier Facilitator Explanation Lack of mentoring Mentoring programs Executive mentioning programs can be extremely beneficial. Executive mentoring is highly valued by women, especially at crucial moments in their careers. Such minor investments can help women advance in their careers and prepare them for future leadership roles, resulting in a large return. Furthermore, this coaching can convey a clear message to women that the firm values them, boosting their self-confidence and convincing them that they are capable of pursuing more ambitious professional goals/paths (Mseka, 2017). Small network Create network opportunities for women As previously stated, women have less networking chances than men due to their frequently lower positions and fewer opportunities to do so. As a result, a network program can assist women in making large- scale connections. These networking groups can help women connect, share their experiences, and find role models. This creates a strong sense of belonging (Mseka, 2017). Family commitments Flexible work program Companies can develop flexible work programs to ensure that women do not have to choose between family and work. Employees, not just families, can use flextime and paid time off to care for their children. This can help employees balance work and family life and keep them loyal to the company, and it does not have to be detrimental to their careers. A child care service, in addition to the flexible work program, might be created to make it even easier for new parents to
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 56 balance their family life and their profession (Hoobler et al., 2009). Managers bias Creating and promoting unconscious bias trainings Eliminating prejudices in evaluations and promotions can help with the gender diversity issue significantly. Flexible work schedules can help retain talent, but eliminating any systemic biases is crucial to ensuring that women can move to higher positions. Unconscious biases affect how managers and executives evaluate and advance people in the majority of cases. Using training and workshops to identify these biases can help to create a more balanced workforce (Mseka, 2017). Maternity leave Keep in touch programs / planning Companies spend a lot of money on newcomer and graduate recruit onboarding programs, but none of them pay as much attention to reintegrating employees who have taken parental leave. This can be accomplished by, for example, allowing female employees to return in phases and having some check-in days during their absence. A mentoring program, in which a high performer who is an experienced caregiver mentors the new parent, can also be beneficial. A buddy system or coaching group can also be a good facilitator. In addition to these HR activities, line managers play an important role in this. Begin by establishing an open dialogue about how to handle maternity leave, communication preferences while on leave, and the return phase, which should begin before maternity leave. Line managers should be aware that this is a profoundly personal, individual transformation for everyone, and that they play an important role in it. Even seemingly insignificant details such as meeting times can have a significant impact (Collings et al., 2018).
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 57 Appendix E Email Invitation to Possible Interviewees Below in image 1 the email invite is highlighted. This email, as mentioned in the methodology, is send to possible interviewees in order to get them to participate in the research. Image 1, Email Invitation
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 58 Appendix F Interview Script Hay Grade: Department: I. Introduction - Welcome and thank for attending - Explain purpose of interview and research (explain data of decreasing % of women in higher positions) - Ask consent to record the interview - Explain the confidentiality of the interview and the right of them to withdraw their interview from the research II. Interview Questions Personal background 1. Can you tell me a little bit about yourself? (not included in transcripts due to animosity) Gender Diversity 2. How do you define gender diversity? 3. When you think about your career (then and now), what are the big changes you have seen within the company regarding gender diversity? a) Examples (family support, supporting women, women getting more ambitious) Barriers (personal experience) General: 4. Can you tell me how you got to where you are today in terms of career? 5. When reflecting upon your own career journey, what has helped and hindered you in your growth? a) Can you give some examples? Cultural Barriers: 6. Have you experienced or seen any discrimination or stereotyping relating to your gender during your career? a) If so, can you explain the situation? 7. Do you feel like you are treated differently because of your gender regarding promotional opportunities? Organizational Barriers: 8. Do you feel that you are supported by the company to be the best employee you can be? Through a mentor or coach?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 59 a) Can you elaborate? 9. Did you receive any support before, during and after your maternity / paternity leave by FrieslandCampina? a) What was good / what was missing? 10. Do you think having children has a negative influence on women’s careers? a) If so, was this the case for you as well? Individual Barriers: 11. Some companies questioned whether women’s lack of confidence and their personality had an influence on their career advancement, what is your perspective on this? a) Can you elaborate? 12. OECD has done a research and found that 60% of the working females work part-time, do you think this has any influence on their career advancement and lack of female presence in higher positions? Facilitators 13. In your opinion, why do you think there are less females in leadership positions within FrieslandCampina? 14. What can FrieslandCampina do to minimize the gender differences? a) What recommendations would you give? 15. Do you think FrieslandCampina makes effort to promote gender equality? 16. What advice do you have for women (men support) looking to break the glass ceiling in their careers? III. Closing Are there any questions or comments that you would like to raise? - Thank for the participation - Explain that it will be transcribed and send back for validity
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 60 Appendix G Transcript Interview 1 Interview #1 Interviewee 1 Hay Grade: 18 Department : IT Interview Questions 1. Let us get straight into the topic. How do you define gender diversity, or what does it mean to you? Interviewee 1 The thing is, is that I always have a character pitfall, which is that I immediately want to do it correctly and good, and I think this question does not know a real answer. It has so many different angles to it that it is difficult to give a smart, bright, fast answer to it. So I think, in essence, it would mean for me that everyone is respected equally, uh, and gets the same opportunities in life, which obviously, looking at even already in the Dutch society, is a complex situation to reach for. So and that is I think it, I think it is not maybe it is not the diversity, but it is more about equality. It is not equality. I mean that you have that you set up everyone in the right way to succeed. 2. And then going to your career, like where you are today and how you got there in terms of your career at FrieslandCampina, like where did you start and how did you get to where you are now? Interviewee 1 Well, when I was 21, your age, I was already working for a year as a physical therapist. I did that till I was 26. Then I went to an executive MBA, which was one year offline, and then came back into the business world from healthcare to the business world. I started working for a consultancy company where I worked for about 8 years in the domain of consulting larger companies within The Netherlands on how they should organize their IT domain. So how do you make sure that your IT strategy links to your business strategy? What impact does that have on your organization? How should that organization run, and when do you decide to outsource? At a certain moment, I had an assignment with FrieslandCampina for a short term in which they indicated that they would start negotiating one of the larger contracts in the CIT domain. And they asked if I was interested in joining those negotiations. So the carrot was that I was allowed to join in negotiations, which I had not done at that time before. It was a contract of fifteen million was not something which I had done by that time, yet high on the ambition list, so I, uh, decided to switch to FrieslandCampina. I started my career with FrieslandCampina as a service delivery manager, focusing on bringing vendor management to the next level. Pretty soon after I joined, there was this reorganization where there were more people grouped together to function as strategic managers or service delivery managers. So I did that for a few years, and then in 2018 came into the role I have now. And help further build the footer in professionalizing this capability. 3. When reflecting on this career journey, what helped and hindered you in your growth?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 61 Interviewee 1 What really hindered me was one there was at the moment I joined FrieslandCampina, IT at least was not so focused on developing people. There was much more 'you do your job and do it well, and when the big boss at a certain moment likes you, then you get a promotion. Uh, that was one thing. Then the second thing that really hindered me was at a certain moment, I had a conflict with one of the IT LT members, so the leadership members. Because I had exposed the fact that he had fraud 3 million. He has miss depicted figures, and as a consequence, we as IT did not meet our budget that year. Which I still find possible because, uh, we have a budget around 140 million, so those 3 million can be found anywhere, you know. I do not believe that it has been the three million, but OK. To be honest, not being able to speak up actually hampered that year even though I had another project going on, which made the CIO meet his KPI and his bonus. Yeah, it was my personal doing that he met that. They almost gave me below expectations mark because of the fact that I had been putting his information on the table. And I think, Uhm, that I see myself growing right now, really fast again, and that is attributable to the fact that the working environment within FrieslandCampina, right now, is a safe place. And it was not, uh, before. In 2019, we had a change in CIO, and you immediately see a different attitude. The previous CIO came from Procter and Gamble and continued to promote people from Procter and Gamble in the chain of command. 4. And then, when you reflect upon your career, what had really helped you grow? I mean, you already talked about it a little that there is now a safe space, but is there anything else that helped you to get to where you are now? Interviewee 1 I think, in essence, I have a Pitbull mentality. So if I want something, I will go for it. So that is I think it starts with characteristics. Is it if I want something, it is going to happen. Or, most of the time, occurs. Uhm, and it helps that I am actually pretty good at stakeholder management. Except for that one time that they had to expose 3 million, but OK, haha. Uh, I learned something out of that. I am not really a good networker, but I am pretty good at influencing the environment. And if you are able to do that positively, people think positively about you. They also see your characteristics, capabilities, and the quality you bring to the table. Marja So you would say that that really helps you? Interviewee 1 Yeah, and it definitely helps that I have a very growth-minded manager right now, and a CIO is also very respectful to his people. So what you see is that even though I am reporting to someone, there is still one layer between me and the CIO. I am actually seen as his trusted advisor when it comes to his strategic vendors. And he really urges me to express my opinion, which makes me also, uh, able to execute my job more and my team to execute their job more efficiently because we are heard. 5. And then, going a bit into the barriers that you might have faced, have you ever experienced any discrimination or stereotyping relating to your gender?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 62 Interviewee 1 Yeah, of course. Yes. Hey, I work and live in an IT department. I will give some examples. Are you willing to hear some nitty-gritty details? Marja Yes, would like to! Interviewee 1 Especially when I was younger in my career. Uh. Or said differently, having a child makes you look a little bit older. It would often happen that I would have a new supplier entering, coming for a kind of a meeting with us, which I would share and that you would have your team. So we always work in multidisciplinary teams. So you have the data analyst and the statistics person, and you name it depending on the issue which needs to be solved. Uh, and the supplier brings their set of bright brains along as well. And then you always have this top talk account manager who comes in, who knows it all and who looks around, who's the other top doc in the meeting, and they forget that I might be as important as that other person in the room, and often I have heard the question, 'Could you please give me a cup of tea or a coffee?'. I had an experience in my consultancy career that I just bluntly, when I was working as a consultant for another company, just bluntly said, 'no, I am not going to do that. I am here as a consultant and not a tea lady'. That, uh, was a very short assignment, as I could leave the room. Marja Oh really? Interviewee 1 Yeah. Uh, so that is something that often happens still, but I also learn to a certain extent, you know, people learn to deal with the situation, and you learn how to counteract it. I personally do not feel offended by people doing that. I do not think that is very smart to do as I need to sign your contract. So you better start cuddling me now because this is not the way how you are going to get it. My work is about relationship management, and if you are unable to relate to me or what the other account manager said to me and I need to say this in Dutch because otherwise, you would not get it. “Joh meisje, je snapt het toch niet” So it is really uhm in the end, if you know where you stand, what you are role is in the process, you should stick to that role, and my role is relationship management, and if a supplier is acting as such towards one of my team members or me, then that is a disqualifier to continue working with that supplier. Marja That makes sense, yeah.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 63 Interviewee 1 And obviously that I have the opportunity to do that because I am in this powerful role or I have this influence within the organization to advise on these topics. 6. So but if you would, for example, have a lower position and would that make it more difficult to stand up for yourself? Interviewee 1 I would not have any issue with it, but I have seen in the past, especially during the unsafe period within it, that people do have issues with that. Uh, and I think. Regardless of whether you are male or female. No gender or of the complete set of letters altogether. If you see someone struggling, you should talk with them and see where you can help them. Last year or ½ years ago, the new solution architect for FrieslandCampina started. And, uhm, it is definitely a person who has a tendency to top-down you as a parent. I do not think it is authority. If you want to have an equal relationship with someone, you have to talk with each other with the same level of respect. The moment the other person is positioning himself above another person, he is not giving you a fair chance to have a normal relationship because he is thinking he can overpower you, and that is not a lasting situation. So he tried to do this with me, and since I have had this all my career, I was not impressed. But the funny thing was, is that we have a Turkish ILT team member. And she called me afterward, and she said, 'Listen, first compliments on how you just continue to address that issue, and not let him address you like that and not making it personal. But actually, you should consider discussing this either with him or your manager because it is non-acceptable behavior.' And I think that was actually her helping and reaching a hand for me to realize, OK, this can happen where there are suppliers. But this should not happen when it is my direct peer colleague. Maybe I have become numb over the years by being all the time in these situations and just continue going. But when it issues a direct colleague, then it is not a good thing. Marja In a sense, maybe a little bit sad that you have to become numb because of it because it just happened so much. Interviewee 1 Yeah, but I think it is also it is changing. Uhm, and you know it is, yeah. How can I say, do you know the expression that when you have like 5 or 10 men entering a room when they are in these sales kind of positions executive account whatever thing. The first thing is if you do an introduction round with them, I will start standing up, and I leave because I get myself a cup of coffee because I do not need to be there when they are going to measure their d*cks along with each other. I do not play the game. That is also part of it. I do not do that. That is not me. You know, I am who I am. I function like this. You function like that. That is fine, do your thing. 7. Uhm, do you feel like you are supported by Friesland Campina? To really get the best set of your career by either a mentor or coach or training?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 64 Interviewee 1 Uh, now, yes. But there have been a few years where I was not so happy about that part. Yeah, but uh, I am in the future leader program right now. Uh, I have had quite some challenges in my team. And whenever I ask for support in some kind of form, HR thinks along with me, and we come together to help overcome this situation, so I mainly use coaching or mentors for short-time fixes. Whereas the, uh, leadership kind of training where I am right now is much more on 'where do I want to go and how do I develop as a person. 8. And so you mentioned that you have a daughter. So I am guessing you went on maternity leave at the time? Interviewee 1 Yeah. Correct. 9. And did you receive any support before, during, or after your maternity leave? Interviewee 1 What kind of support was I supposed to get? I was free. Marja Was there any planning before you left and communication during your maternity leave? Interviewee 1 Yeah. Yeah. So at that time, my manager was female. Has, who has two children herself as well, but that is maybe, uh, wrongly set for me as a manager. I actually think that on paper, FrieslandCampina has the secondary, I do not know it that is English, conditions for their employees. Whether that is the same in other departments, I do not know, but for me, it was. Especially when I was going through that somewhat darker period of my career, I always stayed with the company because I was trying to get a baby, and I knew that there would not be a better place working place than FrieslandCampina to have a baby. 10. And even when you came back from your maternity leave, did you feel like anything changed? Were you treated differently? Interviewee 1 Oh no, no. Well, yes, a lot of changes. But during my pregnancy leave, there was a complete reorganization of the IT organization. So yes, a lot changed, but it never had anything to do with me being on leave. No, actually, no. And uh, I got the time to really come back. It was in the middle of COVID, so it was also a bit strange coming back. There is a new organization, but no one is also allowed to talk with me about it. I still had my own people, but people were insecure, and we were in the middle of getting to know how to work via teams. Ah, the good thing was I could give breastfeeding whenever I wanted it because we were not allowed to enter the company at all, and it was much more comfortable than what you have to do when you have to be in the office. It was pretty relaxed. I could even step out of my meetings too, and schedule my meetings around my breastfeeding. Because officially, I think the company should give you. Two or three hours per working day. If you are in the office to give the opportunity to, uh, handle your bre*sts.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 65 Marja OK, so that was pretty good. If you look back on it now, that was a good experience? Interviewee 1 Yep. 11. So do you think having a child or having children has an influence on women's careers? Interviewee 1 I do think that when you get a child or when you have children starts, this switch in your brain. That you are not the most important thing in the world anymore. If that is not the case, then something went wrong in your biology, you might be called a narcissist or something like that. So and that is independent of whether you are female or male. And I cannot imagine that there are people that might have lived afterward, dream or someone else dreams filling in their career ambition, and at the moment that switch happened, you are not obliged anymore to live someone else's dream. I am slightly differently chute because I need a constant change in my working environment. So I cannot sit at home for a long period. That is not working either, so I actually had a discussion with one of my friends who has a belief about how I function, which maybe does not align with my own perception of my reality, but maybe it is right. Maybe not. But for now, I am not in line with him and, Uhm, I remember that we went to visit them and that I was a bit complaining about the workload and then he stated something to me like, OK, 'But now you have more important things to do, you have a little one. And I looked at him. No, this is a dilemma. I like both. You cannot choose. I cannot live without my work, but I can also not live without my daughter, and how to balance that is something me and my husband need to figure out. Marja Yeah, because in another interview, it was also mentioned that it is really difficult to have both. To always be there for your children and also have a really good career. Interviewee 1 Yep. Yeah. I am in a luxury position that my husband has, uhm. No, I am the caretaker of this family, and my husband has his own company, but he does not have the ambition to grow big with his company. He wants to work he is doing to be good, and he gets a lot of satisfaction out of that. And based on that, we decided that our daughter goes three days a week to daycare, and two days a week, my husband takes care of her. And on the weekend we are a family. But that also means, as previously, before my daughter was born, I was away a lot in the evening as well. Needed additional challenges also in the evening to keep my brain going. And, uh, that is less because you have to make sure your partner has a good life as well and that he can do and if you decide this construct then he should have the opportunity to do the things he liked to do as well. And that means balance with each other. 12. In your opinion, why are there fewer females in leadership positions?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 66 Interviewee 1 I do think that there is a bias on what good looks like. And you will always refer to words of your own standards. Meaning that if someone is not, uh, bringing the content, you would expect. And processing, in the same manner, things from A to B and are not capable of. The softer sides of your or what is required. Uh, and how to deal with risks, mitigations, etc. I think you tend to disqualify that person. So I made a lot of words to say; I think people on the top choose people who are close to what their standard good looks like and that you have biases in that. And I have an interesting discussion with my manager because I am not the type of person who does everything out of logical arguments. I know them, but I go first on instinct, my tummy feeling. And then afterward, I can think like, OK, it was because of ABC&D. So, and you should not overstep the ABC and D because you should always check whether you are just following him because of your emotions or because there is really an ABC&D. But that could potentially lead to, uh, recognition or fire management off my style. 13. What do you think FrieslandCampina can do to minimize that gap or imbalance between men and women in higher positions? Interviewee 1 Well, I think there are quite some tools people have tried to implement. But I think you cannot change from day one to day two. It is a process. Which goes, I think, rooted in only men and females. Because it is learning how to work with each other to become effective, and that takes time as well. So that is why the KPI, in my perception, is not the goal. It is more about how you leverage the different skills and experiences of point in such a way that you really make progress and come to a better situation. And that is very difficult. And often, we focus only on the diversity part that we get the figures right, but we are not guiding this change process. And from that perspective, I think FrieslandCampina has started training or unconscious bias training, but really giving training on how to work in a multi- diverse environment, and be respectful for each other, and giving it time. Because it is often time what is required to get to know each other. I think that part should get more attention. 14. And one more question: some researchers found that women mainly lack confidence and that their personality has something to do with their slower career advancement. What do you think about that? Interviewee 1 I think that is not the case. Women do not advance because they will continue to be insecure. Because if that is the case, you are not in an environment where you can, where you are respected for who you are. Think that will be the shortest, the shortest answer. Marja Yeah, I do not have anything to elaborate on that. That was my last question. Do you have any questions for me? Interviewee 1 I have one remark also men do not perform when they are insecure. It is not just females.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 67 Marja Yeah, very true Interviewee 1 No other questions or remarks from my side
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 68 Appendix H Transcript Interview 2 Interview #2 Interviewee 2 Hay Grade: 18 Department : Supply Chain Interview Questions 1. So you have been in the company for over 30 years. Have you noticed any changes regarding gender diversity from when you started and where you are now? Like were there any significant changes in the company? Interviewee 2 No, actually, in the last years, I have seen some changes, but when I started, I was often the only woman in meetings. They had also preprinted fronts for R&D reports mentioning gentlemen, so that was, uh, at the beginning. It was strange to be a woman, and now I still find myself, I think 80% of the time, as the only woman in a meeting. Maybe because I am in a state and supply chain because I see in R&D more women. But yeah, not so many in real production and supply chain. 2. When you reflect upon your own career journey, in all the different roles you have had, what has really helped you and what has hindered you in your growth? Interviewee 2 Yeah, I always say, uh, you get the columns, and you make uh use of the pros. The Pro is that everybody knows you. That is because you are different. So everybody knows you. So that is a pro, and they think about you, but also there was a concept, and I had several that I did not get a job that I submitted. Because they thought I could not do it. And then a male got the job. And I thought that I had more experience than a man. So yeah, that has happened several times. 3. That relates to my next question, have you ever experienced or seen any discrimination or stereotyping? Interviewee 2 Yeah, I want uh, I once applied for a job as a production manager in Veghel. So I went back to Veghel again, and I did not get a job. Then I went to another place to show that I could do it. And two years later, they begged me to do that job back at Veghel. So that was a big smile then. But yeah. Marja So you have experienced it many times because you are a woman? Interviewee 2 Yeah, I also experienced it earlier at the start of my career. They thought that I could bring coffee or so. So they thought. Yeah, I refused right ahead. But yeah, it happens often. 4. Do you feel like you were treated differently because you are a woman regarding promotional opportunities?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 69 Interviewee 2 Yes. Well, I faced that at the start. I think the first half of my career, and then afterward, I feel like one of the guys. So and I also get the feeling that they treat me that way. So not really differences, but I still see that, yeah, when women, in general, get hindered in our careers, yeah. 5. Do you feel that you are supported by FrieslandCampina to get the best out of your career? Through mentoring or coaching? Interviewee 2 No, not at all. No. When I started today, they just started a project where there were three starters and academic potentials that we got some training, but that was just a group, and afterward, I never had a mentor or a coach. Now what we did was we started a group with eight women on our own. A project group and we arrange training ourselves. And sort of intervention groups, we asked for support from FrieslandCampina, and we got a little bit of money, but it never really paid off. It was just to keep us quiet, I think. Yeah, so I felt it that way 6. And you have mentioned that you have children, so I am guessing you went on maternity leave? Interviewee 2 Yes Marja Do you feel that you were well supported with your maternity leave? That could be before, during, or after. Interviewee 2 Well, I have twins. So I have. So that was pretty efficient. Umm, I was sent home just before my maternity leave, so the by the. So yeah, he sent me home because I worked too hard. And. And it asked too much of my body. But no support at all. And on my maternity leave, I had to work one day to go to the court because there was a case for the project I did. It was not trouble, but there was no support from nobody or anyone who helped me. And then afterward, I just started again. No support at that time, but it was also a while ago. 7. What do you think you feel missing at the time of your maternity leave? Interviewee 2 Well, what I missed was that because I suddenly left. And I also missed, yeah, because being pregnant with twins is very difficult. So I took hours free. So say 2 hours per day because I could not handle it. It was too difficult for me. But there was no help; I had to arrange that myself. So, yeah, there was no option at the time. So I had to spend many holiday hours because of my body. Yeah, I was too exhausted, and I think that could have been better arranged. To have arrangements and compensation or something, yeah. 8. Do you think having children has an influence on women's career progression?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 70 Interviewee 2 I think so. I yeah. That is how you arrange it. I have a man that is doing the household. So I just work 50/60 hours, and he is taking care of the kids. So yeah, that is how we arranged it. And it is working well. So I think also there is a bit of choice of the women themselves. I sometimes say you have one once somewhere in your career you have to decide whether you want to work 16 or 60 hours. So there isnothing in between. That is very difficult to work four days a week and try to care for kids. That is not you. You have to make a good decision whether you want to put all the effort into your work. Marja Yeah, that makes sense 9. I have done some research online, and many researchers have this statement: Women's lack of confidence and their personality have a big influence on their slower career advancement. What do you think about that? Interviewee 2 Yeah, I do. See that women sometimes are less self-confident, but UM, they let it go. They do not step up to be treated differently or to act differently. Uh, what was the second one you said? Marja And the other personality, so everyone knows the difference between men and women and men seem to be more authoritative and women more caring. Interviewee 2 Yeah, I think you need both. So only men are also very bad. So they own all go for one target, and they forget the environment, so that is the power of the diversity, I think, yeah. And too many women together is also not good. No, I experienced that. I experienced that also sometimes in a department with only women. Then no, that is no. The 50/50 is good. 10. So in your words, how would you define gender diversity/equality? Interviewee 2 Yeah, I think it is very good. And I think it is good to have reason to respect each other's different ways of working or of characters or yeah. I think it is very helpful to be open to both or even more views. 11. And in your opinion, why are there fewer females in leadership positions at FrieslandCampina? Interviewee 2 Yeah, I think we do not hire enough women in technical jobs. And I think that the women in technical jobs sometimes stop too early or switch to another type of job. And I think that it is a hard environment. So you must be able to and willing to be a part of that. Marja Mhmm, yeah. So in your opinion, there are fewer females in leadership positions because too few are hired in technical jobs. And the women there may not be willing to take on those responsibilities?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 71 Interviewee 2 Yes. 12. And what do you think FrieslandCampina can do to minimize that gender imbalance in leadership positions? Interviewee 2 Yeah, it is the, I think, the classic things. I am a woman, but I think that I see more women coming in but also taking care of the women there to support women that are already part of the organization, and I also think that well, you see it that that is getting better the flexibility and the options you have in work conditions. So yeah, like teams and working at home, that is now much better. So I think that is pretty well organized. But the other thing is the flow in, and the support of the women in the company can be better. 13. What do you think FrieslandCampina can do to support these women better? Because you talked about that, you did notreally have a mentor or coach that helped you. Interviewee 2 Yeah, I think, yeah, I think with some support, some mentoring programs. When people want to be a part of that. So I do not think that everybody wants to have a mentor. So that is also the question. Do you like it or not? But I think that yeah, that could help. I do it myself also. Yeah, not official, but I coach some young people, and it can be men and women. So yeah, I did it. I think the at least eight people now for the for already, yeah. Marja Oh, that is really nice that you are doing that! Do you see or get feedback from them that it really helps them? That they have someone who is very experienced in the company that guides them a little bit? Interviewee 2 Yeah, they are very happy. Yeah. But now I am coaching a man, and he is quite new in this environment wherein the supply chain and just tips and tricks and sparring. I just do it in. Yeah, within the job. So not official as a mentor, but yeah. Have meetings together. And our and our boss knows it. So it is not anything hidden. But yeah, just kind of a natural conversation. Yeah, I think it is very important to just add. I have this experience and to the. So I learned it also by seeing, not by coaching. When I want to transfer that knowledge and experience. Marja Yes, really cool. 14. Do you think that FrieslandCampina makes a good effort to promote gender equality? Interviewee 2 Yes, I think they are making an effort yes. Whether it is enough that is a bit doubtful for, yeah, for me at least, yeah.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 72 15. And since you are career within FrieslandCampina has been very broad, what advice would you have for women wanting to break that glass ceiling? Interviewee 2 Yeah, I do not, I think do not be too shy. Promote yourself, make yourself seen and hurt. Yes, that is and celebrate your successes, men. All men also do that, and that is yeah. That is needed to go higher, I think. 16. And you also work with a lot of men you mentioned. What advice do you have for them in order to support the women? Interviewee 2 Umm yeah, to be more open-minded, I think. And if you want to uh, hire a new person also think about women and think about that it must. It can be somebody that is not the same as you are. So do not hire a clone, but hire. Yeah. Yeah, some diversity. Marja Yeah, absolutely 17. That was my last question for you. Do you have any questions or comments for me? Interviewee 2 No
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 73 Appendix I Transcript Interview 3 Interview #3 Interviewee 3 Hay Grade: 21 Department : HR Interview Questions 1. If you look back at when you started, all that time ago, and where you are now, what big changes have you seen regarding gender diversity? Interviewee 3 Uh, yes, I have seen changes the most important change I have seen in diversity is maybe not so much on Gender diversity, but maybe more on nationality. When I started with FrieslandCampina, it was a relatively Dutch company and what I have seen in the last five to 10 years is that our workforce has become much more diverse. And in a channel also in gender, what we see is that more female leaders are climbing at the letter at the same time. We are not yet there where we want to, where we want to be. I have the experience myself that if we look at internal mobility, I do not have any experience that because I am a female, I have had fewer opportunities compared to men. That is absolutely not in my experience. It might differ a little bit from function to function. I am working, as you know, in HR and HR is quite dominated by females. So maybe that is you cannot draw conclusions for full FrieslandCampina, but I have never experienced anything like limitations because I am a female. No. 2. Yeah, if you would think about gender diversity, how what does it mean to you, and how would you define it? Interviewee 3 So what it means to me is that. Umm, people from all different backgrounds have the same chances, and we do not make our choices based on gender but on the specific skills needed for the job. Uh, so that is that. That is my vision. I think it is absolutely worth spending a lot of attention on it because it does not come by itself. For example, I am also doing a lot of recruitment for senior positions in my job. You really have to when you start. For example, if you have seen your position, you really have to start with a long list and focus on female leaders. Because if you do not include the female leaders in the long list, you are sure that you will never have them on the shortlist, and you will never have them on the position. So I think we have to put additional effort at the beginning of the process to attract female leaders for the position, and then, of course, in the end, it has to do about the best fit for the job. But if we do not start with the beginning, focusing on the female leaders and that is for external recruitment. But there is also the case if we make internal appointments, then, in the end, we know for sure that we will never achieve our targets. So more effort has to be paid at the beginning of the process. Hiring process internal appointment process, that is for sure. 3. And in a sense, you already talked a little bit about this, but when you reflect on your career journey, what has really helped and hindered you in your growth?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 74 Interviewee 3 What has helped me is that, uh, I have had a lot of managers around me who strongly believed in, in my capabilities and in my skills, and they challenged me to get out of my comfort zone, and by getting out of my comfort zone in each of the jobs I did, I grew to another level. At all very specific points in my career, I have had managers who really forced me to do that to come out of my comfort zone to try and do new things, and in the beginning, it always felt a little bit. Am I going to do that? Am I able to do that? And I had, I was lucky that I had managers around me. Also, a lot of middle managers who encouraged me to take the step trusted me. They gave me the confidence that I could do it, and by doing it, yeah, I grew, and I was asked for the next position. So, managers who are encouraging you to step out of your comfort zone, to grow, and develop, that is very essential. I also think for female leaders to grow. Because I think, on average, female leaders are more modest compared to males. So if you ask women, OK, can you do this then? Most of the women think, Umm, maybe I can do it. And if you ask the same question to the man, they say, yeah, I definitely can do it so. Yeah, we have to encourage them. We have to give them confidence, and that is what has helped me a lot in my career. Yeah. Had the feeling that the manager around me trusted me. Yeah, that helps you that help you grow, I want also helps. And we have a lot of women in the age between 30 and 40, and that is of course also in your private life, that is a very for a lot of women are very dynamic periods in your life because it is still the case that the women are the ones who are giving birth to the children. So it is very important that we are respecting this, that we, uh, are easily accepting that in that period of their lives, women are sometimes, yeah, for half a year not present. But that does not mean that that should not block their career if we have a manager who negatively reacts to maternity leaves of women. That would be dramatic. Uh, for women, but if you encourage them, I am leading a team of 12 HR business partners. 11 of them are ladies, all aged between 30 and 45 every years. So far. I am three years in this position. Every year, three of them have been pregnant, and this year already again. And I am always happy for them. And that is very important because only by being happy for them and make sure that they feel OK. It is OK. You will be back after four or five months, and then that is very important that you give the people the feeling they should not be afraid to tell. OK. I is pregnant. It is something beautiful, and we have to cherish that. 4. And was there anything that could be anything small that really hindered you or made you step back, maybe a little bit, from your career? Interviewee 3 No, It did not make me step back, but I remember my sons are now 8, 12, and 14 today and are a little older, but I remembered from the period when they were younger. Then I had some periods. I was thinking, OK, is this really what you want? A career in combination with three small children at home. And so that went through my mind. I think 3/4 times, and in real-time, a baby was born. Or when they were 2-3 years old. And at those times, you can be vulnerable. So it is especially important when you notice that some women in your team are facing difficulties in managing the balance that you support them. And I think in the end, I felt support in some cases. It had to be it had been a tight balance. So it could also have been that I decided, OK, I just stop and I go to a job outside FrieslandCampina, but in the end, I always felt the
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 75 support, but this it is very crucial that you support women and especially death periods in their lives. 5. And have you ever experienced or seen any discrimination or stereotyping relating to gender? Interviewee 3 Not very concrete. But indirect, you sometimes feel I have to say it is less than then. Then, for example, five years ago. But sometimes, you feel that some of the male leaders have a preference for men because of the practicalities. I have not seen very concrete examples, and I think. Every man in our company, of course, also knows, OK uh, diversity is important, so that is also if you compare the situation in 2022 with ten years ago, people are much more conscious about it. So I do not have concrete examples. If you ask me, are all the male leaders in our company fully convinced that, uhm, men and women are fully on the same level? I do not know. But I have to say, especially the leaders at the top of our organization right now, I am fully convinced that they believe that women and men are equal. That is absolutely my experience at this moment in time and our working quite close to them in my current job and I have never experienced anything bad because I am a woman. Never. 6. Do you feel like you are supported by FrieslandCampina to be the best employee you can be? In regards to training, coaching, or mentoring? Interviewee 3 Yeah, yeah. I have to say I think I am quite lucky because if I look back at my career within FrieslandCampina, I have had a lot of opportunities. I was participating in the potential academic program in the future leader program in the lead to win. Uh, I have had all chances I could wish for. Every two and a half three years, I was offered a new job opportunity, and of course, that was also because I achieved the results and I did what I could. Otherwise, I was not asked for it. So it is not that I was. I am only given the opportunity. It is also because I achieved something. But I realized that I am one of the lucky persons within FrieslandCampina because not everyone has been selected for the future leader program or for the potential academic program or whatever. That is not for everyone. The case and that does not mean that those people who were not selected do not have the potential, and therefore I am very positive that our new approach is more inclusive and offers a lot of learning interventions to a broader set of employees. I think that is very important, but me, if you ask me personally, I think I have Yeah, I have had a lot of opportunities in terms of learning and development in terms of career opportunities. So there is, for me personally, nothing I can complain about, complain about it. But at the same time, I see that is not the case for everyone. 7. So you mentioned that you have three boys, so I am guessing you went on maternity leaves?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 76 Interviewee 3 Yeah. Marja And if you look back at that period of, yeah, maybe all three maternity leaves, did you receive, you know, good support by FrieslandCampina before, during, and after your maternity leave? Interviewee 3 The 2nd and the third time. Uh, yes, the first time, not at prompt. Because of the manager, I had at that point in time. Yeah, I was up for a promotion, and I had a discussion with my manager on that. Uh, no, I have to say the state difference. I knew I had an appointment on my agenda, and during that appointment, I would have a discussion with my manager about my promotion because the time was right for me to get that promotion. At that time, I also knew I was pregnant. That was the first time. So I thought, OK, what should I do first? Tell him that I am pregnant and then discuss the promotion or do it the other way around. So I discussed it with my friends, and they said no. You should first discuss the promotion and then tell them that you are pregnant. It did notfeel very comfortable to me. But in the end, I decided, OK. Let's go for it. So that is what I did at first when I discussed my promotion, and I got it promotion, and by the end of the conversation, I told my manager, OK. And by the way, I am pregnant, and I have to say his reaction was very, very disappointing because he said, OK, lucky for you, not for us. So that was absolute. And that is my son is now 14 years. So that is 15 years ago. And that is for me, was very, very disappointing. So I was happy that I had chosen the right order, but at the same time, I felt disappointed with the reaction. The second time and the third time I was pregnant, my managers all were also a man. They all reacted positively also after my maternity leave, and I have to say the first time after my maternity leave, I could not complain about anything but that initial reaction for me that was so and that moment I thought, OK, whenever I become a manager in my life. And one of my employees tells me that she is pregnant. I will always be very positive. I will never forget that special moment. Yeah. 8. And do you think that having children as a woman, but also as a male, has an influence on their career progression? Interviewee 3 Umm, I think having children brings you a lot. Uh, of course, you have all the practicalities you have to deal with because you have a busy life at home when you have a busy professional life. But I think we should be much more focused on the fact that having children also brings you a lot of experience. It helps you to look at things from a different perspective. It helps you to stay calm because you know you know what is really important. It helps you to deal with, to deal with, stress. But you have to overcome all the practicalities because you have limitations in your working hours and you have limitations on where you can work so. As a company, we really have to facilitate that, and I think now we are working hybrid, we can use that in facilitating young mothers in their careers because it helps them to work from home, but at the same time, it can also be a struggle to work from home. But we have to facilitate them because it is not. It is not always easy. No, no.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 77 7. And I have also talked to some other women that mentioned that it is very difficult to balance, you know, being always there for your children and when they need you, but also having a good career. What do you think about that? Interviewee 3 I think that is a constant struggle for every mother and for every female leader. But as long as you are given the freedom to balance your professional life and your life as a mother, then I think you can do it. You can handle a lot, and it also starts with OK, what is the ambition of the women. But I think the ambition of quite some women is also influenced by the fact that they have to deal with the practicalities. So you have to get away from what is blocking them. Uh, what's hindering them in terms of practicalities? That is something we can help with. We can facilitate them as an employer if it is about their own ambition because they simply would like to be at home, and that is a different discussion. But if the ambition is there, but it is more, OK, how can I balance my private life and my professional life? Then I think you can do a lot as a manager to help those women in the balancing act. And I think there is no one size fits all because for every mother and for every woman, that can be different. Someone likes to have more freedom. The other one likes to have, uh, being more in the office, not being at home. So you really have to listen. OK, what is it that you need to be successful, and can we facilitate that? 8. Yeah, I have done some research online to find, uh, yeah, academic articles and other research that has already been done on this topic, and a very recurring theme was that they questioned whether the lack of confidence, which is mainly associated with women and their personality, that that has a negative influence on their career advancement. What do you think about that? Interviewee 3 No, I recognize, and that is what I mentioned earlier in the interview, is that on average, women are, I think, a little bit more modest compared to men. So it might be the case that if there is a vacancy for a senior position that maybe the women think, OK, I am not sure if I am ready for it. And the male colleagues think, OK, I can do it. So, it does not say anything about who fits the job best. It is more OK, what is this well, this is the starting point of the potential candidates. So, in that case, I think we really have to stimulate the women in, in this case, to also apply for the job. And that is what I meant with, OK, the long list on the long list, we should make sure that there are a lot of women on the list. So you have to pay additional efforts to get them on the list. You have to stimulate them because they do not always do it by themselves. 9. And in your opinion, why do you think that there are fewer females in leadership positions at FrieslandCampina? Interviewee 3 I think maybe because of that may be because they are, uh, more modest. I also think because so far, we have not always put enough effort into encouraging them to apply for the job, I think there is also more to do. I think that is most important. Yeah. And deal with balancing the balancing act between professional life and home. 10. And what advice do you have for women wanting to break the glass ceiling?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 78 Interviewee 3 I would say just go for it and dare to come out of your comfort zone. And be aware of your strengths. That is very important. Be aware of your strengths and put them to the front. Also, in interviews in your continuous dialogues. Do not be too shy to talk about it because women sometimes tend to talk more about, OK, I have to develop this, and I have to develop that. But you can also be proud of your strengths without being arrogant because I think that is important. And but I always think it is very important. Be proud of your female leadership. And do not try to copy the man because I think men and women, we are simply not the same. So make use of the fact that you have unique set of skills, and yeah, I always say do not try to act like a man but be proud of what you can bring as a woman. 11. And then what advice would you have for men wanting to support that break of the glass ceiling? Interviewee 3 Open the view and look a little bit further, and do not look in the short term. Uhm, I would advise him. OK, yeah. You do not know what you miss if you do not include women in your team because they really can bring a different view, and diversity, in the end, brings more innovation and brings more performance. It is all proven by research. So be open to a more inclusive workforce in terms of gender, but also in terms of nationality, all different kinds of forms of diversity. Be open to it because you do not know what you miss if you only look at the persons who are the same as you are. 12. OK, that was my last question for you. Do you have any questions or comments you have for me? Interviewee 3 No, I think it is very good that you are doing this research, and I am curious to hear the outcome.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 79 Appendix J Transcript Interview 4 Interview #4 Interviewee 4 Hay Grade: 18 Department : Commercial Interview Questions 1. When you think of the career path you had, was anything that helped or hindered you in your growth? Interviewee 4 I think what helped me was that. At FrieslandCampina, there are a lot of possibilities, so I have never needed to go elsewhere because I cannot develop myself anymore within FrieslandCampina. So I am still within because I can still develop myself in any direction I want. I never drafted a career path at the beginning. It was just what do I like? What do I love? What am I good at, and what is available? So I gradually move from one world to the other. I have never planned it ahead, but I have talked to many people. Within the role I had, I was quite able to see what else was there and everybody was open and transparent. So you can go for coffee to have some information about the specific role, or if there is a vacancy, you can have an informal chat before you maybe apply. So I think that that helps and enables to well to draw your career path. As you go, let us say, and in the beginning when I started the marketing, maybe I had, I think I needed to have more perspective. So how to get to what well career step? And there HR was working on tracks how to make which steps in in in order to get to which place. But looking back, I do not know whether that is really possible because everybody is just a tailor-made track for themselves. I sometimes have you want to well first broaden yourself before you make the next step vertically. And that is so specific for everybody is for everybody as a person based on what is your capabilities, what do you like doing. What is your need at that moment, which is less plannable I would say, and I have never thought of doing a job just for the sake of it because it would be good for my career. For me, it was always important. Am I happy in this role? Does the content hard drive me? Make me enthusiastic in order to consider such a new step? Marja Yep, nice. And if you look back on it now, was there anything that really hindered you from going to the next step? Interviewee 4 Not really hindered, I must say. I think we were actually when I moved into my former role. At that moment of time, my manager actually thought I was not yet ready for such a step. But I really wanted to take the next step. So I applied for the vacancy without telling my manager then. And then HR checked back to her, and well, she was rather angry with me for doing this internal solicitation. And I think she actually advised maybe against it to my new manager, but luckily they saw the potential, and we are not bothered by that. And I think I have proven her wrong because it was really a good step for me, and I still do not know whether it was because she did not want me to leave or she thought that I was not fit for the job. But I have felt like a hinder as a hurdle at
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 80 that moment of time. And I think at all times, you need to be transparent with your manager if you are willing or open to any new opportunity, which I was. But then it is, I think, within your own hands to use your network well and then the options to explore and not have HR or your manager decide for you whether you can make the next time yes or no. 2. And is there any time you can remember that you experienced or seen any discrimination or stereotyping regarding your gender? Interviewee 4 No, not personally. Uh, but I have an example of UM. It is actually the other way around. I am now a mother. I have two young children, so I am working four days, so 32 hours instead of 40, which is, I think, accepted totally actually there I even get compliments from a manager. 'Hey, you are still doing your job perfectly because I used to do it in 40 hours I After coming back from maternity leave, I did it in 32 hours, and it was still totally OK. And I still think that I am ambitious, although I have one day as my part-time day a week. But I do have a male in my team who does the same. He is a father and works 32 hours, and the perspective on him is not by me but by my manager and the Managing Director. They were saying he is not that ambitious because he is not working full time. And then I told them that it is really strange because it does not really matter whether it is a male or a female. We are making that decision. I think it is equal to being a mother or a father, and I cheer everybody who makes that decision to be home one day a week. So they actually turn it around. I was given compliments for doing my job and working four days a week. And by doing that, I was seen as really ambitious because I combined them both for the mail. He was really seen as less ambitious because he is a male, and he is not working full time. And he also has a wife who has a good job. And then I think, but I also have a husband with a good job, how is that different from each other? O, that really bothered me, and I also spoke in that meeting about it; that was really well. I think it is a mixed signal actually the other way around in this sense, I have to say. And I do. I also have to say within FrieslandCampina. There are not many examples of high- placed males who have paternity leave. Males are doing it less so. Personally, no discrimination on the end that I am a female, and I did not get any promotions, at least not what I experienced myself. However, I would always turn it around in this context, the context of working 32 hours instead of 40. 3. And do you feel that you are supported by FrieslandCampina to really have the best career you can by training or mentoring, or coaching? Interviewee 4 Umm, yes and no. I think within the last two years, due to COVID, a lot of training was not, of course, continued. So really, I feel it was well. Uh, well, not any progress. Of course. You learn on the job. Do not get me wrong, and from your stakeholders and everybody you work together with, but on the training level, I do not think it is really that. Umm, well, that is strongly embedded yet in getting you to training. And in the earlier days of my career, when I was in the high potential program, it was really mentioned that if you want to make a career, you also need to go abroad. And at that moment in time in my career, I did not have children. We were told to flexible or ongoing where we
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 81 wanted to go. So I was open to that. But then, there was no opportunity. So they say in order to get to the top, you need to be around, and part of that is going abroad for FrieslandCampina, but there are actually not that many possibilities in doing so and then becoming in the context of being a mother, having young children and having a husband with a good job. It is not that easy anymore. Uh, and I still think I have the belief that they expect women to make that same step as easy as men could. I still think that my husband, for instance, would say, well, I am only joining to another country if I also can get a good job myself there, whereas I think there are a lot of women who say to their husbands I will join you. I will quit my job. I will take care of the children because that is fine for me for the next two or three years. So I do think for men having a family. And the wife? It is really more easy to go abroad because they have the possibility to do so. Then it is the other way around for women, and I still feel FrieslandCampina treats it as a really important factor in getting to the top, let us say. 4. So you mentioned that you have children, so I am guessing you went on maternity leave? Interviewee 4 Yeah Marja And did you receive, you know, good support before, during, and after your maternity leave for FrieslandCampina? Interviewee 4 Not really, not to the best potential. I think during my first maternity leave, I had to do the transition handover while already being on maternity leave. And three days later, I gave birth to my daughter. She came way early, so that was not the best situation. However, I was really happy that I had a replacer, and coming back, the transition went perfectly fine. With my second child, I had to transition my job not to a person who was replacing me but to three different persons already working their job and having to get my activities on top of their list and then coming back. Not everything was taken care of. So usually, which makes sense, but that was the because of it. And I also have to maybe it is a good problem here as well. I had two women in my team who had to go on maternity leave, and I had to fight like hell to get replacement positions for them because the actual request of HR was, well, make it somewhere else in your team has split activities within your team because we do not want to increase FTE in headcount because in December they do this. I have to account, and this was in the October and November period of time, so they do not want it to have replaced because both the women who are on maternity leave and their replacers were both in the FTE count, which does not make sense because it they are replacing them, they are not working at the time. So then I told my manager that it is giving me a signal as a hiring manager that if I hire a woman who is likely to become a mother may be in the next few years, it will give me problems. And that, I think, is also a really wrong signal for well, which one to avoid.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 82 5. And do you think that having children has an influence on your career advancement? Interviewee 4 Umm, no, I do not know. I do not think so. No, I do not think they factor in that. I am a mother and, therefore, maybe less capable of getting a role. No, I think it is more in. Can she put in the hours, and then 32 hours is still accepted. And of course, it is you work more than 32 hours but let us say on paper, and you have to make that work. So I do not see that as a limiting factor in my career as FrieslandCampina is considering me. 6. And I have done some research on this whole topic. Uh, before I started the interviews and there were a lot of researchers who questioned whether the lack of confidence that is mainly associated with women and their personality has a negative influence on their career; what do you think about that? Interviewee 4 Yeah, I tend to agree. You can say, why are there fewer women at the top? Is it because they are not hired? I think to start with, there are fewer women who are willing to go to the top. There are more women who are fine. We are in the position where they are. So in some cases, it is also less ambition in the total population of women. And then, indeed, I do also think that men would jump into a higher role earlier as they think. Ohh, I will just, I will just see when I get there, and I will make my way. And women tend to make that step only if they are certain that they are capable of the task, responsibilities, et cetera. So that they will do that later in their career because they need more time to grow in their own confidence in date in order to make that step so and then also personality-wise. It is also a factor weighing in, for which I do not know whether, indeed, males are more confident and therefore making that step earlier. But yes, I tend to think so. And I also think that is the reason why men make more salary than women as they are just more confident in their uh, and then negotiations and they just make it. This is what I want. Otherwise, you cannot have me, and women tend to be happy with the content of the job and take whatever the offer is. So that is, of course, not the only, but I also think that is part of it. 7. And you already sort of answered this question, but why do you think that there are fewer females in leadership positions at FrieslandCampina? Interviewee 4 Yeah, yeah. But there is another factor which I would like to so I do. I do think there are fewer women wanting in that position. So I do not. I do not know whether it needs to be 50/50 because that means that from a smaller population, you are not, you need to get the 50% women in versus a larger base of men who are maybe applying for it. But I do, and I am not sure, but I do think. As I went on maternity leave two times and we get a performance review on a year, I do think that when on maternity leave, the chances of being granted an outstanding score are actually lower because you spent less time in the year to prove yourself, let us say. So I do think in those years that women were away on maternity leave, they are changed to get an outstanding score are lower. I do not know whether that is actually reflected in the data. But this is my feeling, and maybe that also helps her when moving into the next positions. Is their performance review of the last few years and it could be a factor, I am not sure, but that is sometimes also my feeling.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 83 8. And what do you think we can do to minimize that imbalance? Interviewee 4 Males have more paternity leave, making, showing them also to all others that irrelevant of being a father or mother, you can become in higher positions, although working part-time. Yeah. So and I think also women are inspired by that, not only men. So I think that that would also help because I think still if you are a woman tend to think I only can get in that role if I work full time or if because that is what all the men do on till now. So maybe that is one thing. Umm, I think positive discrimination in terms of equal capabilities, personality, fit, whatever. Then you can indeed also do positive discrimination just for diversity reasons within that skill. On the question of how we can make the imbalance better, I think, yeah, I think it is about world model role modeling. So the women who are at those higher levels that they are more feasible and maybe more approachable in how they get it done or organized. Because I do think that women do not take that step because they think they cannot do it or they cannot combine it with their family life or whatever. And I think those women can become more visible and play role models. 9. And do you think that FrieslandCampina makes enough of an effort to promote gender equality? Interviewee 4 They are making good steps, but I think that is rather recent. Maybe the last two or three years that I have started this inclusion program. UM, which is well, which is a lot of good intentions. But as I just mentioned, having to fight for replacement when women are on maternity leave was, to me, a signal. We talk about equality. But when I, as a hiring manager, need to get a pregnant woman replaced, I have difficulties. So I do not think it is really on par with what we are saying, what we are doing. So I would definitely say that we are not there yet. But it is good that we make a start with this program. 10. And what advice would you have for women wanting to get to higher positions that are maybe at the start of their career? Interviewee 4 Ohh, well, my advice is. Do what you love. And actually, I had this conversation yesterday at a party. Sometimes you are advised to do a role just for the sake of it because it is good for your career. They think maybe from marketing do also some years in sales because that will make you a better commercial manager at the end. But I think if you are not happy in a role or not really confident in a role, or do not really have the content skills, then you can never. Uh, make your best performance. So I would say follow your heart actually in that sense. So go on, find those jobs where you know that you find the energy and where you can give your energy and your best potential showing your fit and that what will make you become, I think, feasible for getting in any next positions. So it has helped me so far. I followed my own heart, and I have looked at. I want to develop myself, and I still hay within my own role, or do I need another challenge or another? Well,
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 84 change of scenery because in within the community of so many different opco's, different business groups where you can do a lot of other things which really well drives your network. So make use of your network. I would always also say if you know people, then give them a call and make sure they know they consider you when there is any new vacancy open, and then I think you can get there as good as a man would have. 11. Yeah. And then brings me to my next question what advice would you have for men wanting to support that minimalization of the imbalance? Interviewee 4 Well, I think again, go on paternity leave or make sure you have your if you want to. Because I have spoken to many men who actually wanted to, but I think it is not accepted, or I think they cannot manage it. But yeah, we all have to manage within the hours we have available. So also maybe. I do not follow the standard that makes your own choice and your priorities and just makes it happen. Because if women can do it, why men cannot do it, and it only sets, it also sets an example to irrelevant of your being a mother of father. You can still take steps in your career, so I think they can also become a role model in that aspect. And yeah, in any other way, treat women like men. But yes, yeah, I do not know if and how what that exactly means. But it is the best I have. Marja Yes, thank you 12. I think that is actually the last question that I had for you. Do you have any questions or comments that you would like to raise with me? Interviewee 4 No, not, for now, I think.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 85 Appendix K Transcript Interview 5 Interview #5 Interviewee 5 Hay Grade: 18 Department: Supply Chain Interview Questions 1. You have worked for quite a while then. And when you reflect upon that career journey, is there anything that really helped you and really hindered you when you were growing in your career? Interviewee 5 Within FrieslandCampina or? Marja That could be outside as well. Interviewee 5 What helped me is that I have made a career depending on my network. On whom I know or knew. And then people saw a nice opportunity, and they asked me, and they said, is that not something for you and that is how I get new functions. And not because HR says, hey, you have been doing this for three or four years. We have a new next step for you. Is this something for you? That has never happened to me. Marja So really, that network that you build within the companies really got you to where you are today, I guess. Interviewee 5 Yes, yeah Marja Nice, nice. And is there anything that really hindered you or something that really maybe helped you back a bit? Interviewee 5 No, I think my focus on work-life balance that it has to be possible that it had to be possible because some people stayed at my previous company, and I see them now and in the next step. And I think, yeah, that would have been a nice step. But yeah, not my combination, not this phase of life. 2. And during your career, have you ever experienced or maybe seen someone else's discrimination or stereotyping? Yeah, relating to their gender? Interviewee 5 Yes, of course. Marja Like, uh, a female would not be able to do that.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 86 Interviewee 5 Ohh yes, the behavior of men and what sometimes what man says to women also. Yes, in certain roles, yeah. Marja Do you have any examples of that? Interviewee 5 Like I know that I knew someone who was a financial controller, and she made all those steps. Yeah, it is a financial admin in finance. Those steps are very easy. Or you see them very easier. You are an administrator, and then you are an assistant, and then your controller. And as you made the step and then she made a step to headquarters and then her boss from another or in the matrix and the other he said. Yeah, beware, because now you work at headquarters. Beware of your clothing, and he was always wearing a sweater. It was so. He was always wearing a shirt and a sweater. And she had to be wearing formal clothing. Yeah. We have been laughing about it so much. But it is also so frustrating, yeah. Marja Very weird comment to make Interviewee 5 Yeah, weird exactly 3. Yeah, yeah. And do you feel that you are treated any different than, for example, meals in promotional opportunities? Interviewee 5 Umm, I also see my, so in this function, I have 8 /9 / 10 male colleagues who have also earned the exact same function, and I do not see them making any promotion either. Except when it is on their personal network or when they started that themselves. So no. Not on promotion. Marja OK, but also not in maybe other ways that you feel that you were treated in any different? Interviewee 5 I am, so it is a very technical function that I have, and I am not very technical, but sometimes I think there are other males that are not very technical, but from them, it is more accepted or something, and for me, it is expected. Do you understand? Marja Yep Interviewee 5 Sometimes they say they have an attitude of 'oh, she will not understand that. And I think no, I have Wikipedia as well. I can find it, I can. I am smart enough that I can find it. So yeah, sometimes, I think. As a woman in a technical function, there is, yeah, a prejudice. 4. And do you feel that you are supported by FrieslandFampina to really be the best employee you can be, maybe through training or coaching or mentoring?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 87 Interviewee 5 I cannot remember the last training I had. I think in 2015. So that is yeah, no. Marja OK 5. And you mentioned that you have children. Did you have them during your career at FrieslandCampina? Interviewee 5 No Marja No, OK. But then I will still ask the question, uh, because I am still curious if you were supported during your career even in your previous company. Were you supported before, during, and after your maternity leave? Like how was that experience? Interviewee 5 Difficult in male technical companies, it is difficult. When I announced that I was pregnant, they would have the social capabilities to say congratulations, but you saw that. No, they but it is difficult because as a woman you are away for a long time. But now also men are away for a long time. And I have experienced that. I think it is annoying and that they rather have someone who is not pregnant. So I am glad that now also men are away for a while. Makes the difference not so. Not so big. 6. Then what do you feel was missing at the time you went on your maternity leave? What would have really helped? Interviewee 5 A backup. So 'hey, Here is someone who takes over your job for half a year, and you are gone. What is it, four months? So you have one month of translating and transferring, and you have one month when you are back. So there is a transferring period. There is a period before and after and in that everything is to that person. That will be perfect. Marja Did you not have a replacement? Interviewee 5 Nope, everything was handed to the team. So when I came back, I had to get everything from several different people. 7. And since you have children yourself, uh, do you think that having children has a yeah negative influence on your career growth? Interviewee 5 It impacts my choices of what I want to do. But it also makes me a better employee. I have more empathy. I have more fun. I, yeah, can relate to other people who have children. So yeah,
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 88 it. Yeah. Umm, it impacts my choices. Sometimes I see people doing things, and I think, yeah, I do not want to do that now. But yeah, it is a choice. 8. Because I think many women because there was actually research done on this in The Netherlands, that 60% of the working woman work part-time, which mainly relates back to that they got children and that they do not want to work as much anymore. And do you think that working then part-time has an influence on? Yeah, that is sort of a lack of women in leadership positions? Interviewee 5 Yes. Because there is one day off when you have when you are working part-time, you have one day off, and it is. And what do you do when there is an important meeting on that one day off? Then you dial in again, but then your kids are on a Wednesday afternoon or a Friday. Then you have that scheduling, and that happens once, once there is a very important meeting, and you join, and then next time they think, oh, I had that meeting on Friday. So let us do it on Friday, and then you are off, and there goes your Friday. So it is very difficult to schedule a day off. Yeah. 9. Yeah. And also, some other researchers have really sort of question because, yeah, lack of confidence is really associated with women, but also their personality that they mentioned that that has an influence on their career advancement. What do you think about that? Interviewee 5 I can see it because some men are a bit bragging or better doing than they are. That is more accepted by men than by women. So I can see it. And men can also easily take a job that they may be master half or something. They can get away from it. So it is part of woman, but it is also part of being a woman, but it is also part of the accepted behavior of men and not accepted of women. Marja Yep. Yeah, sort of a, yeah, maybe stereotype. Interviewee 5 Yes 10. And in your opinion, why do you think that there are fewer females in leadership positions at FrieslandCampina? Interviewee 5 Because men select men because the people select the people they look like or like. 11. And what do you think Frieslandcampina can do better to minimize that imbalance between men and women in higher positions? Interviewee 5 Force. If you have a team of 5-6 people, then you need to have that 30%, so force it. Yeah, it has to be on every level. You cannot say, oh, your team, that is too difficult. No, that is nonsense. So it that 30% has to be everywhere or make it 40%. And then you have it.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 89 12. And do you think that FrieslandCampina, at this moment and makes a good effort to promote gender diversity? Interviewee 5 I recently saw a picture of Hein Schumacher signing a contract with another white male. And around the table were like on the back. And you have those boring pictures. You know, there were eight men standing, white male men. So, yeah, no, I do not think so. I do not think they get it. They have the e-learnings in place, and they have something there, but they do not. The men do not get it. They do not see it in the picture. Yeah. 13. And what advice would you have for women that maybe are in the earlier phases of their career and really want to break that? Yeah, glass ceiling. And what advice do you have for them? Interviewee 5 Build a network, and maintain your network internally and outside. And try new functions if someone says, 'Is this something for you? Then think twice. Do not think. Ohh, yes, no. Ohh no. No, I do not. No, do not think twice. 14. And what advice do you have for men wanting to support women better? Interviewee 5 Also, take a risk. Yeah. When a woman is 80% capable, she will be capable. Also, 60% or yeah, whatever. Take the small risks. 15. And if you would be, uh, then the CEO of FrieslandCampina, or any other really high function in the company, would you do or what would you do differently? Interviewee 5 See, what I am thinking is that. Whose problem is that there are no women coming up. Is it only that HR is responsible for that certain level because, on the level below, there are good women, maybe probably. But on the level below, if that is in my responsibility, I am not going to promote my woman, my female colleague, and say, hey, yeah, there is a good woman. Let us try something different. Who is the benefit of that? So it should be the benefit of all the HR chain. That there is some promotion. Do you understand what I mean? Marja Yeah, yeah, that is not just the problem of, yeah, maybe the people above, but also below. So then, if you would be the CEO, you maybe drive that better that line of promotion, I guess. Interviewee 5 Yeah, from the bottom up. From, hey, who is on the next level because. You see trainees, and when you are a trainee, then you get those steps and getting experience in all kinds of functions, but in other functions you do not, you hardly see that. Now you see in finance, you see clear career steps, and with trainees, you see those side steps. But yeah, I would say try to do that more.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 90 Marja With 'regular employees,' you mean? Interviewee 5 Yes, with the good performing employees, yeah. 16. That was my last question for you. Are there any questions or comments that you would like to raise to me? Interviewee 5 I will tell you an anecdote. Marja Okay Interviewee 5 I have worked abroad for FrielandCampina for a while. For two and a half years, I was an expat. Me and my family we went abroad, so that was a big step. So that is a big step for a woman also. And before your standover, you get a medical check at an external something. Because they do not want you to go over there and then you have a heart disease or whatever. So everyone gets a medical check, and that doctor said, 'I am seeing a lot of those expats, people being sent out, and the only women that are being sent out are from FrieslandCampina.' That funny, right? So it is there. We are doing it. She saw a lot of expats from a lot of companies, and she saw the females from FrieslandCampina. So I thought. So that is a nice thing. Marja That is a nice story. I did not know that. Interviewee 5 No, I did not know either
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 91 Appendix L Transcript Interview 6 Interview #6 Interviewee 6 Hay Grade: 19 Department: HR Interview Questions 1. When you would then reflect upon your career could be inside but also outside of FrieslandCampina, what has really helped you and what has really hindered you in your career growth? Interviewee 6 Yeah, I truly believe that you always need to have a first look at yourself. Have a daughter on the horizon. So no way you want to go here. So in the and then have the right sponsors in place. That is crucial for your career. And also just uh, not only focus on the hierarchical growth but also think about a little bit longer. What do you need to come up with that next step? And I think my previous company, an American company, it was like a pyramid. So that was very clear that every two or three years should just take a step. And if he did not take a step, you felt like I am not good enough. And then those people made a choice than to go outside the upper out model, but then it was very clear how you could climb the ladder and also make choices around that. And that is, I think what I see happening, even if I am in HR, that is less clear within FrieslandCampina. Marja Mm-hmm. Yeah Interviewee 6 And that is. But sometimes I think you also need to just throw people in the sea and let us see how they swim and come up to also stretch them and let them grow faster. And I think we have a kind of a very a culture where we really want to be 100% sure that people are ready for the next step, especially with women. But we will come later there. They are typically not the ones that are raising their hand except for a few others. And that makes it very difficult for them to grow as fast as they could. 2. And is there anything that hindered you or maybe held you back? Interviewee 6 Yeah. And I think I also in your uh introduction in the five uh, I am now currently pregnant. Marja Oh congratulations Interviewee 6 Yes, they said. It is very OK. You can do your job very well, and you can also get promoted. So that is not a problem. But then still you have some time because I have. This is my third pregnancy within FrieslandCampina. But it does not help because you go out and you sometimes also feel a little bit awkward that again, you come even as an HR. You come in, so it does not hinder you in your career. But it does not accelerate it either because, yeah, you also
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 92 have other things you need to take care of, even if you have a nanny and house and everything is arranged well, but that is it. Yeah, it is unavoidable and has an impact. 3. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And have you experienced or may be seen somebody else any discrimination or stereotyping regarding their gender? Interviewee 6 Uh, not specifically, but I think it is still there in the back brain. So also if you look for example in supply chain or in the commercial functions. And yeah, it is we always say, uh, do not quote me like that 'the angry white men and that is sometimes what we make fun as a ladies on the director level that we say like OK that is again a decision made, so you know that the decisions are made by a group of people that. I truly think they have the right intentions, but they are biased by how they look at the world and how they see the world. And we had last week we had a two days event, and Hein was also presenting there, and it really made very explicit that he felt sorry that I think from 39 to 36 women in top leadership positions dropped this year. Whilst what I have seen in my previous company where they just said 50%, that was the target. It was in everyone's target and just made it work that there are 50% women. And here we say that we do and think it is important, but then we do not act like that because you can only do it to just push women in that direction, and then maybe some will fail. But if you do not do it, you will never reach the target, and that is what I find a little disappointing. Even in my own HR, I really tried to push the women. But yeah, at a certain level, I do not have the ability to move them through that glass window, no ceiling. Marja And in the company itself, it is really a nice goal, but it should not stop at 30% because the 30% is the goal. That is one in three. That is not. That is not that much. Interviewee 6 No, and we all know about diverse teams. How important this is for a company, but we do not act on it. And I also do not think that is that it is best practice. But yeah, you almost feel like how more should we push, and I try with, and that is the good thing also with my sales manager she is at hay 22. And then let myself have we voted to women in our in the MT of The Netherlands. And we also tried to push and give the right example, for example, saying no if I have my part-time afternoon to also be very explicit in normally I say I am just plan, plan, plan. But if I do it and also all the people in my teams believe they should do it. So also a role model as a woman. And we have a lot of interaction about it; how we help or, for example, if there are meetings planned on a Wednesday afternoon, we just say no to the MT. And it helps all the other ladies because it needs to help the women, a little bit hard to also position themselves and not that they are not attending the important meetings because they are on a Wednesday afternoon when I think. If we want to be a diverse company, we also should respect that there is part-time work. Marja Yeah. Yeah, that is really nice that you do that.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 93 Interviewee 6 We have, we have to. 4. And do you feel that you were treated any different because you are a woman? Interviewee 6 No, I think it is a more cultural thing. I do not think it is a one on 1. 5. And do you feel that you were supported by FrieslandCampina to really be the best employee you can be? Maybe through training or mentoring or coaching? Interviewee 6 Yeah, I think I have good leaders. So they do have the intention. But what you will also see happening in, in the company is that people are busy. The work. Yeah, it is not an uh. To better understand how I could also position myself as a woman? There are no good programs for that at all. No. At my previous company, we also had high performing women's events, etcetera to just also equip women with the things they should do and should know. But that is not part of our culture at RFC. I think their RFC can really make a difference. 6. And you mentioned that you have two children and one on the way, and I am a bit curious about your maternity leave experience. So did you receive, if you look back on it now and even now as well, do you receive good support before, during, and after your maternity leave? Interviewee 6 Yeah, very good. And also, after my first maternity leave, I got promoted to this current role. So there was also good, and I think in that role. Yeah, there is always. Yeah. That they will support it also, the Managing Director always also gave me a monthly call during my maternity leave just to check in on how I am doing, and now I think they do very well, but it still has an impact on your career. I am convinced that when I did not have those breaks, it was only three 3-4 months. I could have made one step more, I am convinced. Marja Mmm-mm 7. Because that is, uh, actually relates to my next question is, yeah, do you think that having children has a maybe negative influence on your career? Interviewee 6 Yes. But not on my mental will. It is another order element that helps you your career because you have that that that that is family, but yes. Marja Yeah
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 94 8. Yeah, because, yeah. A company in The Netherlands actually did research, and they found that 60% of the working women work part-time. And do you think that that has any influence on their career advancement that they work part-time? Interviewee 6 We say no, but I think yes. And that is because and I also see because I am now again working full time because it was impossible to have that Wednesday afternoon. So I am not role modeling very well, but I am on the back still working every Wednesday afternoon because it is impossible with what they do expect and also what your peers. That-uh, uh are doing at the same time. The good thing is that in the Netherlands, you see more and more males are also taking that part-time or a few hours of the week. So I think it is a little bit less strict than it was before. But yet part-time does not help because you can have us. We want to steer on output, but in consulting, that works. In operational jobs, that is an impossible goal because the work continues, and the mailbox is just exploding. And you cannot easily say do it tomorrow. Not in my role as HR but also not in the supply chain. Yeah, it is if there is a problem, you have to take care of it. 9. And some other researchers have questioned whether, yeah, women's lack of confidence and their personality have an influence on their career advancement. What do you think about that? Interviewee 6 Agree. Yeah, I do not think, uh, for me personally, not. But I think still you see that that, uh, the women in and I have a lot of conversations in my HR role do not have the confidence about it, and you really have to give them confidence that they are ready for and I think the people on the hay 22 plus other women that are the power ladies that dare to stand up and say like I am ready and raise your hand. But you really have to raise your hand to come there. And that is not what I am used to. In my previous company where people noticed the competency, and now it is if you shout hard enough, then you might have the chance they pick you up. I do not know if you have heard that before. Marja Yep. Umm yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think some women experience that themselves that they need to get sort of a push to get there. So yeah, but I think they all agreed that, you know, women, sometimes you need just a little bit more of a push and that men, even if they do not have all the competencies, will still apply, for example, to a promotion. And women tend to focus more on the things they cannot do. Interviewee 6 Yeah 10. And in your opinion, why do you think that there are fewer females in leadership positions?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 95 Interviewee 6 I think I think there is that ceiling that it has a certain point of time where it is very difficult to break through on different reasons not on competencies but also more on the confidence of people. And also the balance that they are looking for in private life. And then there, it is not all men's fault. Because sometimes I also see it in my personal friend circle that I sometimes think like, why do you just withdraw yourself? You are at that level bit, but then they make other choices emotionally than men do. That is one. And that is. I think we women need to work on it. But on the other hand, it is also that. That the yeah. What we always tell the angry white men that they make a decision on what they think we should have, and that is not always a woman. And especially not if you are young and also full in life, and then it is taking someone from abroad with Gray hair and at least to compensate for the fact that that it is a woman. But it is also a little bit in our own uh mind that we make a deliberate choice to balance private and work too much. Marja Yeah, I spoke to someone else who mentioned that you could notreally have both. You cannot always be there for your children and have a good career. Interviewee 6 It is not possible. Yeah. And it is especially in the Netherlands, people want to do it both, and that is impossible. And then they make another choice. Yeah. Yeah. I tend to agree with it socially. 11. And I am just curious because I did notask it a bit ago, but when you went on your maternity leave, was there a replacement for you? Interviewee 6 Yeah. But I had to fight for it. And that is the point from last year, and it really upset me, and I made a big point out of it as we were not allowed to replace maternity leaves due to the FTE target and that, luckily, it is not that anymore. And I also uh, as an HR always say, I do not accept that in my group. All maternity leaves can be replaced, but they had a discussion about it. It is impossible. Work 70 hours a week to just save money. It is foolish. And then I have an MT function. Can you imagine? Marja Yeah, crazy 12. And what do you think Frieslandcampina can do to minimize that gender imbalance in leadership positions? Interviewee 6 Target setting. And just get to that target. That is the only way. And put it into their objectives so that they do not get a bonus if they do not meet a targeted thing. The only way how we can accomplish that. A bit more balanced gender diversity in top leadership roles.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 96 13. And do you think that reason could be A at the moment makes good enough of an effort? Interviewee 6 No. No, no, because we have less than last year. And we are losing people because we behave like that that we tell that we find it important, but we do not act upon it. 14. And what advice would you have for women that are maybe just starting their careers or are a little bit more advanced in their careers but want to break that glass ceiling? Interviewee 6 Yeah, I think two things. One, be clear about your ambition and where you want to go. Make sure you find the right sponsors and also and I think also related to what the other interviewee says, also understand that you need to offer something, it is not just walking to you. You also need to invest in it, and that means you need to make choices. Yeah. Yeah, it did take it. It. Yeah, it. It is also a little bit of an investment. 15. And what advice would you have for men that want to support that glass ceiling break? Interviewee 6 Yeah. Just what I see in my MT and especially our marketing director, he keeps on repeating that he finds it so important and tells his teams that he wants to grow them, especially the women. So just coach them, help them support them, and be a good mentor. 16. And if you look back on your career, what was really missing or what would you really of like to have? Interviewee 6 Yeah, that is and then again, this switch in exchange here, I think that it was like a how it should be, yeah, just pushing women and give them the confidence that they are so much needed to do business and also to get the business running and I think there FrieslandCampina could do a little bit more to just also explicitly put them in that position and make it very explicit how important this that they grow. In the same way and another one is also because I did some RSP edits the pay, I did it in my group, and there I also draw some conclusions, and we made some adjustments to also make sure, and I think also in the other groups we need to just also see if the pay is fair and all that kind of stuff. We are not there yet. 17. And yeah, it is sort of you order kind of answer this question already, but I am still going to ask it, but if you would be a yeah, the CEO of FrieslandCampina, what would you do differently or would you do anything differently? Interviewee 6 Targets. Targets. Targets
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 97 18. That was my last question for you. Do you have any questions, comments, or examples for me? Interviewee 6 Yeah, maybe one example that I have that I see as a good example of how it can be done. So that is our sales director, she is hay 22. And but she really made every month, she said. Like, I am ready for this role. I am ready for this role. I am ready for this role. And it is even the men they say like, oh, there she again. But she managed to get a position, and she is also a fighter in her sales group. And that is male dominated in the importance of getting the right people on track even when I am at HR sometimes pushing. Are you sure? She said, 'she is not ready yet, but if we do not help her, she will never be,' so we got her promoted, and then she really convinced me that we should do it and we could make it work. And we need a little bit more of that kind of people to also because if those female leaders also get the right people out and give them confidence and support them, because if they fail one time. Not that everyone is saying 'no, we warned you,' But just keep on giving confidence in how well they are doing. That is for me. And we need a little bit more of that kind of people.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 98 Appendix M Transcript Interview 7 Interview #7 Interviewee 7 Hay Grade: 17 Department: HR Interview Questions 1. And yeah, so you have been in the company for a couple of years, and when you sort of reflect on that career journey, what has really helped you, and what has really hindered you in your sort of career growth? Interviewee 7 I think what really helped me is I have been really lucky, except in one position, but in all the others. Well, after my traineeship, I worked in the finance department, and I reported to a really great leader, and at this moment, I reported to the HR director, and before, there was another great director. So I have reported to really great leaders, and I think that really helped me and also in setting an example. So I reported to the finance director in my previous role in finance, and I think she is really the example of like a female leader. And she still is today a great inspiration. We just had this sparkle together that she could bring out the best in me. So she knew how to do that. Uh, but I think that really helps. She gave me a lot of freedom, which I really need, so I think I have just been lucky that I have had some great leaders. That no. Well, they give me the space to really develop myself. And the freedom. And not micromanaging. I have seen a lot of micromanaging. I think I would not, uh. Thrive under a manager who wants to micromanage. Marja Yeah, no. Interviewee 7 And then what's hindering me, I think in the first couple of years, I did not really know what i really wanted to do or to be. So I was really looking, and it also brought some insecurities with it. So now, looking back, I think, Ohh wow, I had so many different experiences. I have been in IT, finance, supply chain, and HR. So I have seen different parts of the organization in different types of roles. And I think that really is added value for me today because I also know how to do projects, etcetera. I am quite analytical. So I think some of the skills and company says I developed really helped me. Now that I am maybe not the standard HR type of profile. But during that period, it also made me feel insecure because then when people ask, what would you like to do in 10 years or five years? I had no answer, and you feel like, oh, I need to give the right answer. Uh, and I was still looking for it, so that I think sort of hindered me or at least goes quite some insecurities. And I was really relieved when I ended up in HR, and it felt like, OK, this is it. Uh, it was sort of. Uh, yeah, a weight from my shoulders. 2. During your time at FrieslandCampina, have you experienced or seen any type of discrimination or stereotyping relating to their gender?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 99 Interviewee 7 Well, I have had a manager in an IT who came to me because he had a colleague. Who was new, and he discriminated against her by calling her 'a little mom' (Dutch: Moedertje). Then she mentioned, 'I am not a 'little mom,' but a professional, and you do not speak to me like that in such a team setting.' But I also think maybe I have not always been aware of it. So, for example, I was in the factory, and I was good at being one of the guys. So I could stand my, my man, so to say in Dutch. And I have not really felt discriminated against because I had this great relationship with the people who reported to me. And I do not know if I look back if that is different, but I think maybe. So at least that has been discriminating. What I also see, and maybe I do not think that is really discriminating, but for example, I have been working at the corporate finance department and there you at a point quite some expats, and I think we can be more inclusive when we get people from abroad. When I, for example, visit an Asian country, they take me out for lunch and for dinner, etcetera. But Dutch people are more closed. So they came into the office, they were not part of my team, but we were just sitting on the same floor. And people say hi when they come in. But it is also goodbye when they go home and then they have their own life. So I really felt responsible and also took them along to and Dutch habitat. So, for example, when it is King's Day. I explained OK, next month's King's Day. You need to be in orange. It is nice to do this with your kids. Where one person lives in Utrecht and one in Amsterdam. I did look for tips on where they could go with their kids or alone. Umm, so there would not be like stupid on the day or overwhelmed with this. And actually, there was one girl from Singapore, and I forgot. Well, I was out of the team, and I spoke to her, and no one told her it was Sint Maarten. And then she had all the kids come to their house to sing and ask for candy. And she said, well, I really would have wanted to know these types of things because then I could feel really like part of the local community. And now she. Yeah. She could not give anything. And she really felt sort of left out. So that is maybe not in the office, but I think being inclusive is more than just being a nice colleague, it is also helping people to really integrate. 3. And do you feel that you were treated any differently because you are female? Interviewee 7 Sometimes I am. I do not know. I hope not. But I think yes, sometimes also. Uh, for example, I also use it to my advantage in some uh times. So, for example, in IT. You are one of the few females you can also use a bit in your 20s. You also make use of competencies. You maybe have a bit more like a female than a man. I think I used it also in my role as an HR employee in the factory. I was definitely being treated differently. I also use it to my advantage you need. And I have not consciously had a bad experience being a female, luckily. And maybe there is also, and maybe I do not notice as well. I feel safe quite often, and maybe sometimes you do not hear things, and then looking back, you think ohh, maybe this was not really correct. The thing, but it is also in your head, so I got pregnant quite fast after I delivered my first baby, I came back and then three months later I had to tell 'OK, I am pregnant again.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 100 And then I noticed I really was afraid to tell it. And then, even if I knew the reactions probably in my environment would be great. I have had just one experience with the manager in finance who had one of his direct reports who was pregnant for the second time, and he said, 'is she pregnant again?'. And I am like, you really cannot say that. He has kids with two wives, but I think that is somewhere in the back of my mind that people can also react like that. There is some block in your head that you feel the tension between telling it and you feel afraid, or you feel that you are viewed as a problem. Etcetera. 4. And you just mentioned that you felt you were treated differently while you were working in the factory. Could you tell me a bit more about that? Interviewee 7 Yeah. So I worked with operators; they were males in QA and continuous improvement. And I think there is just a big difference in so in general, but also in type of career and also in the type of education level of education. So I think there is already a big difference, and we had a really good connection somehow, I just knew how to build a great team, and people really liked me as the manager of the team. But they looked at me as a, and I do not know, this female. I am highly educated, I am from Amsterdam. I dressed differently than the people there, so I was more modern. So to say, I talk differently so I look posh in their eyes. So all those little things. Sort of makes the difference really visible. Uh. In the beginning, I used a lot of English words because I came from the finance department where I spoke with FDs and they were like, 'just talk Dutch. What are you actually saying? You use to difficult words.' So there were a lot of true differences that also made it visible. And I think therefore they are they the people have you put in a certain bucket. And I think I would be, and I would have been treated differently if maybe I were a guy, maybe also from Brabant. But I think in this case. People, really, the people, my team really liked it. Maybe people, if I made around, I knew I was aware of what I needed to do, really my best to connect. And for example, I would share that I also lived in Brabant to make sure that I was also one of them. So I think I was conscious about what the differences were and how I what I could do or say to try to connect more, to be a bit one of them. Because in the end, I was just a passenger who would be there for a period of time. And they were operators who would stay there doing the same job, and some were already doing it for over 30 years. There is also a difference, so I think, but if how that, then. Yeah well, I do not know. Marja No, yeah, you are explaining it quite well. Interviewee 7 OK 5. And do you feel that you are supported by FrieslandCampina to really be the best employee you can be, maybe through training or mentoring or coaching? Interviewee 7 It is hard to say if I am supported by FrieslandCampina because FrieslandCampina is something quite vague. But I said at the beginning I have had in those positions, really great leaders, and I also I am not really shy so well in some cases I am shy, for example, to ask for certain maybe training, but I always I know I will always. I was always supported by the leaders, for example.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 101 When I really, after five years, I still did not know what I wanted to do, I was out of the Department of Finance, and I spoke to my manager, and then she paid for a career advice trajectory with a psychologist because she said, well, I think it is important that you do this. And I think she even paid for it. So that is really nice. So I think it is also dependent on the manager you work for, but also are yourself, and you should take the opportunity, and if you take it, there is an opportunity. Having said that, in the last year there was no budget, and I think what I also feel is that it also dropped down a bit. And I also started just to focus on learning on the job, which is really important as well. But for example, I really want to develop myself as an HR professional, so maybe get some accreditation to become an MBTI facilitator or focus more on coaching or something like that to deepen my professional skills. That is something I want to discuss this year. And I think there was no space in the last two years, or I would not have felt it, that there was space because of budgets. 6. And you mentioned that you have a child and one on the way. Did you receive good support before, during, and after your maternity leave? Interviewee 7 Yes, but that is also, I think, because of my superior herself. So it really depends on the individual and what I really love about my superior is that she, for example, I wanted, I did not want to come back and be the woman that then gets paid four days a week but actually works 5 plus days a week and you see that a lot. Uh, so I said, yeah, I want to work 36 hours and 4 * 9, and she said yeah, but you have a little baby. And it is also nice to just do the 32 hours because then you also do not have to have to work those nine hours. And you also do not have to feel guilty when you just check out. And I said OK then. But she said it is OK to start with the 36, and then she had worked, and then I said; 'OK, let's just start with the 32 and then see how it works, and if I really know that, I consistently make extra hours, then I just want the discussion to be open for change', she said 'Yeah, sure. And now I am. So after one week, I already sent her text message. Ohh, thank you for the advice, but because I really love now to spend also the one day with my child and she still has all those naps. So you are quite busy the whole day. So I do not feel obliged to open my laptop and also not feel guilty when I am not there. And I think that is nice as well as that she also said OK. We had a discussion on ambition, so usually, a lot of people think that ambition is, is equal to the amount of hours you put into your work. But I said, yeah, I look at it differently. I think now, and she said 'Yeah, you also have to be more efficient now you work less,' but as well to me, ambition is being just high in energy and also in being flexible. So for example, tomorrow we have an event. Usually it is my day off, but also to be flexible in those cases to then change your days off, etcetera. So I think we have really good conversations on this. But I think it is really up to my superior. Uh and I, in a lot of cases, it is really different. I also hear, for example, managers say; 'Yeah, it is good that people work 4 * 9 hours because they work 40 hours plus and then it is cheaper for us, and they still do the same amount of work'.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 102 That was in plan and deliver. I was HR manager there, and that has been said, I think, three times by the same manager. And that is not OK. 7. And do you think that having children has an influence on your career journey? Interviewee 7 Ah, yes and no. So yes, you are now in a different phase of life, and I think you are. What is important to you can differ in every phase of your life. So I think what is really important is that I really love working, so I really love the combination of being a mom and working. But in the end, at 5, my head is with OK, I can go home, I can see my child, and we need to be on time to eat dinner on time, etcetera. So I think your priority shifts a bit, but it does not mean work is not important. But I think the priority shifted a bit, and I am less, I am OK with opening my laptop. But before, I was really usual, and now I only do it if I feel like the world will explode if I do not do it. And I think that can also change again when the kids, for example, go to school. But I do notice I since I have kids, I also question myself. OK, I see Some examples of each other directors who really work a lot. I think my superior is one example. She is a good example. I think she has quite a good balance, but for example, another director just works, works, and works. Uh. At least that is my view. And then I think, OK, if my kids, even if they are older, is that something? Is that job something I would like to pursue? Or am I also found in Hay 19 HR manager position where I feel I have a bit more flexibility. So I want to become this HR director, but then I also feel like OK if that is then required, is that something I want and is it tradeoff then OK. Yeah. So I think if to have good examples really helps also to have male examples. For example, we had a CIO before, and he had kids, and he always went home. He always took the 5 o'clock train. And then he was just offline for a few hours. Then he worked every night. But I think it was at least a good example that he like, between 5:00 and 8:00. He did not work, and he was home with the kids. So it is good to have, but for example, my previous superior, she did not have kids, so she worked a lot. But she also made a liberal choice not to have kids, as I understood. My understanding is that she and her husband wanted to build a career together. And then she said OK. Then we do not have kids because you it is not just only for fun, It is also responsibility. And I think there is also a good example that she said, OK, it is also OK and its deliberate choice to have kids and then also to make different tradeoffs. So indirectly, that was my takeout. And it is also OK not to have children and then have that type of life. But if you have kids? Yeah. For example, Hein, his wife, also has a tough job. And then she has an opinion on that. That kids are mainly raised by the nanny. 8. A couple of researchers have found that the uh, the sort of lack of confidence that is mainly associated with women and their personality really has an influence on their slower career advancements. What do you think about that? Interviewee 7 Agree. Yeah, so, for example. Yeah. Now I also do corporate affairs. If I were a man, I would have already. Uh, in my next pillar discussed with my manager. OK, So what does this mean for my pay grade? I know that because I and I have not done that. I think it is because I am a bit shyer in that. And also when you see, for example, vacancy and there it says ten years plus
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 103 experience and I maybe have eight years' experience or 8 1/2. But I think I have talent, but then I feel insecure like, oh, but I do not have the 10, and the man will think, 'oh but I have all the other things on the list, so I am a good candidate.' 9. There is research done in the Netherlands that showed that 60% of working women work part-time, do you think that has an influence on why there are fewer females in leadership positions? Interviewee 7 I do not know. Maybe in some type of rules. Yes, in HR, I do not think so. Because you see a lot of people working part-time and it at some point or some positions you see it does not really work. So then they move to full time. So, for example HR director, I think it is hard to do that part-time. And so it can be indeed. But I do not think earlier in your career it should be something that is blocking you In HR. But that is just my sense of how the culture now is within HR. But maybe if I would like to stay part-time, I do not think you can really be successful in such a position. Or you would be the woman to be paid part-time and work full time. 10. And in your opinion, why do you think that there are fewer females in leadership positions? Interviewee 7 I think the multiple reasons. One is that we still have this idea of a leader having the male trait. The second can be that we also think for the women. Would they like to have this or etcetera, etcetera? And maybe it is also that women should stand up more and be more explicit about their ambitions. But I think it is also something that should be valued, so the female traits should also be valued as one thing, my previous superior told me. She said I really used male developed male traits and used them to make a career. But she said there. You have so much value in your female traits, so really use them and do not lose them. Do not change to make this career. So she told me some good lessons about that. But I think on the other side, that is something we feel like, oh, that is good Uh leadership. So that is also something like a man. Like an image of the leader. There are also they are different types of leaders and also different phases of a where an organization is in, it can help indeed to have this red male leader, but in some cases, it can also be really helpful to have this female. Maybe a softer leader. And you also have men that are also being stereotyping, of course. But like, types of people also look in politics. I think in some situations, you see that the male leaders really are good. But for example, in Corona times, you also see that some female leaders were really good at leading a country. So also can depend on where you are as an organization, what type of leadership you should have, and I think that is something we are not always aware of, and you also tend to hire someone who's a bit like you. And if we have a lot of men in leadership positions, then it is also the tendencies that they also hire men. 11. And what do you think that FrieslandCampina can do to minimize that gender imbalance?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 104 Interviewee 7 Yeah. So I hate this target. I have had great discussions with my friends because I think you should select the person that is best for a position, but I think breaking these boundaries helps. It is needed to have these targets, and I hope at one point we do not need them anymore. So I really changed my mind and also myself because I said, well, if I have candidates against I just select the right one, but maybe I will I am also biased, I do not know. Uh, I am going to be sly, so I think it is good to have those targets to break any biases. It is also good to have female examples and what I like, such as the safe spaces, and questions that D&I does. It would be really be nice to have them more often for and with women. So that that they stimulated to have these types of conversations and also for, for example, Geraldine share or like these leaders to share their experiences and that everyone experiences those things and how to deal with them. And I can imagine within the supply chain, especially that is really needed. 12. And do you think FrieslandCampina, at this moment, makes good enough of an effort to promote gender diversity? Interviewee 7 I think Lesley is doing a really, really great job with her and the network. Is it already in our culture? No. Are we taking the right steps to build to make this part of our culture? I think yes, but it also takes time. And also, there are things you can also do in terms of policies. So, for example, as a man, you are now allowed to have additional leave when you have a baby and get paid 70%. I think FrieslandCampina should say 'OK, if you take it, we pay the extra 30%, so you do not have to deliver in on your salary'. Uh. You see, I think HEMA is a good example. I think they are doing a good job in diversity also. For example, if lesbian couples get a baby or gay couples they. I think they are a good example, but it is these small things that would help. 13. And what advice would you have for women that are maybe more at the start of their career and they really want to break through that glass ceiling? Interview 7 Good question. Find examples. And then, if you have an example, so I have reported into examples, but otherwise, ask to be mentored by these great examples. If you feel like, oh, this person really inspires me. And try to try to find also, if it is possible, try to find great examples. Can also be a male who is a great leader, for example, with you. I really love them as well. Uh, but find examples if possible, report on these examples, and otherwise try to be mentored. Uh, by them, because then you can also have the discussion. And dare to speak up. But therefore that is also good. Sometimes you do not know. Or you just shy, and it is good to then have this conversation like, OK, I like to get coached as well. And develop because it is not like, OK, I am aware that I should when I have a deposition, I should talk about salary. And how do you handle this conversation?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 105 Yeah, it is not that I am aware that I get. I am also able to put it into practice. I think that is where coaching can really help. This is maybe something, uh, FrieslandCampina can do to have to set up a program, Uh, specifically for women and maybe and that will be nice if that is the global thing, because I also think in some specific countries, it can even be harder. To breakthrough ceilings so that could be like leadership development, there would be really nice if you are in training about leadership that is only with the female that also touches on these, uh, things that you have a discussion that you share examples because then I think you also feel more empowered and you do not feel lonely. It would be really great, actually. 14. And what advice would you have for men that want to support? Yeah, that break the glass ceiling. Interviewee 7 Also, ask the question, women, what can I do? And have and what I also feel like in general men. When you ask about their family life, a lot of people, their face changes. They are they become softer, and you see that they have this caring nature as well. But they do not use it at all in their job, and you feel like how? You feel like you. You are quite a nice dad or family, man, but you are a horrible person to work with. So I think that is something that could also be to also maybe female can maybe use theirs. The male traits a bit more when necessary, but the other way around, I think, is well. And listen. And try to be open about your unconscious biases. Even I have them; I could just go for it. So I have an unconscious bias that I am that I shouldn't, why I feel afraid to tell that I am pregnant again. There was also one example. If you want to hear another example, there was a woman, a management assistant who was working three days a week and then she wanted to take some days off. It also was actually the same director. He is still working with FrieslandCampina. He said, 'Well, why does she need a holiday? She already has two days off per week'. Yeah, that is one of our finance leaders. Yeah, that is horrible. 15. Umm yeah, those were my questions for you. I think we have two more minutes. So do you have any more examples or questions, or comments for me? Interviewee 7 Umm. Yeah. So there is one girl that shared that she felt discriminated against when she was pregnant and when she was. I think you will probably talk to her as well. So that really broke my heart, and that made me also realize. And what did it really different can be different in what department you are. So you cannot really generalize for the whole FrieslandCampina. And it even I am I think in the safe space. Yet I also sometimes feel it, so we are still not there. So if I am like in the right spot and I also feel this, these, these, these walls I need to break through, then how would someone feel in a place where they are like five steps back?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 106 And so I think mostly that, for example, finance as well, I do not see a lot of people working part-time. I think my answers would probably be different if I were in a supply chain or finance. Marja Yeah the answers can definitely be different Interviewee 7 Yeah. And there is also easier because I have colleagues we are going to discuss it with, and I am a really open person, so I am just lucky that I am really an open book myself. And therefore, I think I have these discussions. But if you are not an open book, if you do not feel safe, if you do not have a colleagues you trust or you can rely on if. It really broke my heart to hear this girl who was discriminated against, and I felt like, oh wow. And then she wants to talk to people and they she did not feel hurt. I cannot imagine it in my position that that would happen. So I can imagine I have the same maybe anxieties, for example, but I cannot imagine that if I then. You really need to step over the boundary to then make it to discuss it, but if you then feel hurt, you really can get a trauma, and it really broke my heart to hear that story. And then I feel extra lucky myself. But it is really important. It is really important, and I think it is also really important to share these examples. So that is maybe something we can do is to make to show that we are still not there to share these examples and then to have the discussion and then also to say, OK, and we do not blame people, but it is good to share them and then to also discuss and to reflect, OK, is it something maybe also that I contribute could. Contribute unconsciously. And I think those discussions really help, and it would be nice to also see how we can maybe integrate more into it because the safe space is really for the people who like to be part of it. But how can we integrate that Uh, more also into leadership programs, for example, and in the lead to win in the LEAP, etcetera. Can we make this part of it? Because I think the questions you ask, OK, are for women and for men, it is really good to reflect on them and also to be aware of, hey, maybe I feel these boundaries. I am not even aware of it. Or that I feel I am just humble, not discussing my hay grade. But and I think that is normal, maybe I can think that is normal, and I mean the charge. So I know a lot of men would have, but if I had not been in HR, I would expect other people who were like me as well. You just do not know.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 107 Appendix N Transcript Interview 8 Interview #8 Interviewee 8 Hay Grade: 20 Department: Development Interview Questions 1. So you have been in the company for quite a while. What has really helped and hindered you in your career growth? Interviewee 8 Umm, what has really helped me is that I think in critical moments in my career, there have always been people who believed in me or that supported me. I, yeah, hindered. I do not know exactly. To be honest. I think maybe in R&D, there is a bit of a different culture in the discipline where I at least I experienced as more equal because we also have more I think in my team we even have more women also in the leadership team, we have more women and in the management team also. Uh, so we already have a more diverse and more equal population, at least in, in my perception. But that is maybe that is only my personal perception. What I do experience, however, is that because we are very disciplinary, so we work together with marketing with supply chain with all kinds of other disciplines. Where it can be different and also show some different characters from different personalities, especially in the commercial organization or in the supply chain, you can have more, yeah. Alpha dominating male types. I experienced that it is more important how you sell yourself. Yeah, yeah. And then personally, I am I think I am not so good at selling myself, so maybe that is also a bit of a. So there, that is why I have been helped at critical moments because maybe other people did know me much better and did have yeah positive feedback. And you need, sometimes you need some yeah support or somebody who is helping you. 2. Have you ever experienced or maybe seen, uh, with somebody else discrimination or stereotyping relating to, yeah, your gender or their gender? Interviewee 8 No, Umm. No. Yeah, I think maybe something comes up later. But at the moment, I cannot think of it, but I think I need to be cautious because it can be unconscious biases, so that I did not realize it, this could be. But in private life. I maybe I did, but not in. In professional life. I cannot think of an example now, but maybe something will come up later. 3. Do you feel that you were treated any differently because you are a female? Interviewee 8 No. Do not know. 4. And do you feel that you were supported by Friesland Campina to really be yeah, the best employee you can be, maybe through training or mentoring or coaching?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 108 Interviewee 8 Yeah, I think we have a lot of opportunities because we. And first of all we have, I think very good training the FrieslandCampina academy training program, which is for everybody. But also. Uh. Uh. There. Yeah, I need it. I really had to difficult meeting before, so I really need to think of the topic. Marja No worries Interviewee 8 Can you tell me the question again? Marja Yeah. If you feel very supported, to really get the best out of your career through training or mentoring or coaching. Interviewee 8 Yeah, but that is does not have anything to do me with. If I would be a man or a woman, I do not see a difference there. That is at least not my perception because we have programs in place for everybody. And also we have, for example, future leader programs or also in the past, we had for the potential programs. Where everybody, uh, there is usually a diverse group in those cohorts. I think everybody, if you if you want it, you do get the support. That is my own experience, yeah. 5. You mentioned that you have children. If you look back on that time, uh, did you receive good support before, during and after your maternity leave? Interviewee 8 Yeah, yeah, that is a good one. Yeah, because there now I remember that when I was pregnant with our first child and my manager was an old man who was going to retire. And actually, what my own plan was that I was, I was in a position. This was this change management role when I already said when I started in that position; I only wanted to do that for one or maximum of two years because I wanted to be in a the business role and not in a corporate role. But then I was, yeah, I became pregnant and I had to go on leave. And then I said, well, when I come back, I would like to have a different role. So can you also help me? But then he was like. All good intentions have been trying to protect me, but said no. You better first go back from the maternity leave and you do not know actually what is all going to happen and you better first take it easy. And then I was really I that I found really strange because I said I thought that is my own I can. I can make that judgment myself. Uh, and yeah, so. That felt like. Yeah. What are you interfering with? But yeah, so it is something that that I can have, I do not know the English but I can judge myself. It was good intentions, but I felt indeed like I was treated differently and also not given the same chance because that would not have been the conversation with the man. If he would get a child.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 109 Marja And with your second maternity leave, was there also? Umm yeah. If you look back on that period, was it? Yeah. Was the support good or good enough or was anything missing, maybe? Interviewee 8 Yeah, but that is a bit of the complex thing because maybe I now also sound contradictory. What I just said because. And I also now do realize, because I went through it myself two times, it is actually quite impactful when you get a baby. And in both cases, I was really extremely busy during my pregnancy, so I had in both cases I had to extremely busy job and in the second time also setting up a new team and at and yeah, being pregnant also is consuming a lot of energy. So you do not sleep very well. So it is not that you are always on the percent of your normal capacity and. Yeah. Did I get support? Yes, because yeah, both situations, my manager was indeed supporting me. But you? Yeah, it is a bit you also do not want to do less than your colleagues. So it is a bit. How to how to balance everything? Because you also, yeah, you need to also do your normal job but also at the end you need to look after yourself. 6. Do you think that having children has influenced your career? Maybe slows it down? Interviewee 8 I do not know if it is slow down, but it certainly has an impact because you not only have the maternity leave for months but you also yeah, during pregnancy. Yeah. Yeah, that is also not completely as normal. Many women underestimate or also people. Other people maybe is that I think for in total yeah think about. To actually quite a lot to combine. So I think we could pay more attention indeed, and that is they also looking at other countries; I think as the Netherlands four months maternity leave, I think it is really on the low end. We get together with people from, with women from Asia. They are, they have less maternity, so that is the other end. But I think if you look at Scandinavian countries also, I think in Germany. I think there is more, I think, more attention for the what is, I think it is an improvement is that there is more leave also for the father because I think all these things you need to look at both women and the men. Because also for the men, it is, uh, indeed. They also need to be facilitated to also take parental leave. And maybe that is not accepted yet. If he wants to work fewer hours. Yeah, there is. The wife is going to have to solve it. And I think it is, especially in in many managerial roles. So really they detain 19 and higher. I think there it is, that is. Still, I think .. 7. Some researchers have questioned whether women's lack of confidence has something to do with their, yeah, slower career advancement. What do you think about that? Interviewee 8 Uh, yes, I think that is good. Certainly be the case, because I also experience that myself because what you always read in indeed that if you ask a man for a position, then already by asking the man thinks 'oh then people think I will be capable of doing this. And I think women and I also do that myself. I want to also know that I am able to do it and then yeah. Ohh, I also start to doubt a I am really capable of doing this? And this is really possible?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 110 Uh, yeah. Then I start to question that and I know it. I know it. It is the rational thing, I know it, but it is deeply rooted, I think. It is something which is not in a I think that is because I also thought about it a lot because I realized that I made quite a lot of nice steps. But actually, all the positions I have been in now, I think at the end, I was asked to do this. And when and often in in other periods when I was actually looking for another position, I had to job interviews. And then, for some reason then I also need to start to think too much. And then that is why I said maybe not good at selling myself because then I am, I am apparently. I did not realize when I had the interviews, but apparently, then in the feedback I did not come across as confident enough. And yeah, I do not know, the feedback was positive, but apparently not convincing enough to really appoint me to the position. 8. And another big research done in the Netherlands specifically mentions that 60% of the working woman or working females works part-time, do you think that has any influence on yeah, the fact that there are fewer females in hay 20 plus positions? Interviewee 8 Yeah. Uh. Umm yes. I do not know if there is a cause relationship. But I actually work 90%, so every other week I have a day off. And now, when I was appointed this role I thought, 'what do I do?' Do I continue? And because it is much more busy and this is better for now, Actually, also, uh yeah, I also think it is important for me to have the proper balance. Because we can always continue working, but then, Yeah. Actually, the good thing of being in, in a managerial position is that you can also organize and you can delegate. Actually, you have much more autonomy. So for now and then, I need to be I should be able to organize the situate that is possible. And I also told that to my team and they also said, well, that is really nice because then it is also good if you show that it is possible. So but now I realize that it is really difficult because I often work on my day off. Because now I am working on a big special project and then there is a lot of extra work that needs to be done which I cannot delegate. So now I am already for 2 ½ months, not really making it my day off. Uh, but yeah, it is difficult if you have a really a direct exposition. It is. It is difficult to combine, yeah. So you need you so it also comes with sacrifices that that is also I think the other thing because also a man in my team is working 3 1/2 days but he also wants to grow and its,uh, very ambitious in that sense. But then I also think well, 3 1/2 days you can also not expect that you. That is that is not a lot. So yeah it is a there are two sides of the story I think. 9. And in your opinion, why do you think that there are less females in leadership positions as reason Campina? Interviewee 8 Uh, yeah, that is the $1,000,000 question. Yeah, I think in the top we still and specifically in some business groups and some disciplines, we still have I think. Yeah, the leadership roles are I think then still with white men. We also do not have a lot of internationals. The yeah, in Asia, but not in the Netherlands.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 111 So then I think what happens is also I think you know from relationship that that people pick the ones they look people that are look like themselves so. So in the global in the executive leadership team, there istwo women. So in R&D we yeah, we already have four years of female R&D director and that helps. I think so. Yeah, she did. She is a role model. Marja I think that is very important as well for women, but also for men is that they have a sort of role model who is in a high position that really shows like, hey, I have kids, but I also have a good career. You know, it is possible, but you just need to balance it very well. Interviewee 8 Yeah 10. And what do you think for some Campina can do to really minimize that gender imbalance? Interviewee 8 Uh, yeah, I think what you are doing is I think you are good to have a I think a good root cause analysis because I think we need to better understand why because it is. Yeah we can make assumptions, but maybe yeah. And I am not. I think we really need to have a good understanding. And there is always the questions of having KPI's. Yeah, I am not sure I change opinion all the time about this because you see in in some cases that it works. And because you see then, for example Scandinavia that you see more women in in the higher positions. On the other hand, I always think as being a woman myself. I guess pitfall that that is. I do not want to be appointed in a position because I am a woman. That would not feel good to me. I want to be. Uh. Appointed because I am the best person, not because I am a woman. That is something that that would be really my main concern that you get in such a situation. 11. And do you think that FrieslandCampina at this moment makes good enough of an effort to promote that generate diversity? Interviewee 8 Uh, yeah. Last year we had several, there were several sessions organized by HR or also to educate. I think that is cool because there was something about Imposter syndrome and I do not another topic. Which I think is good because then you also increase awareness and you educate. I think that is also helps. There were also role models. I think I Geraldine and some key people the women or men. I think that it is also important that we look too often to the men. But actually also happens in my team that that was also I think the unconscious bias because we were talking about. UM, yeah. Diversity as a as a topic and inclusion. And then we had two women that would look into it. Because there were women already initially working on the topic, and then we thought let's make a small team. But yeah, then you should also men in the team. It is not, but that was also the Advent automatically and it maybe it was unconscious because the, the women did sign up themselves,
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 112 but when it almost we just realized just in time ohh no that is not how we should organize it then we also need to ask some men because otherwise we get the same imbalance here. 12. And what advice would you have for women? Maybe in the start of their career, wanting to sort of break that glass ceiling? Interviewee 8 Uh, yes. Stay who you are. I think we use, I think the key principle is that what we can learn from diverse team is that that there is diversity. So we should not try to be more men like or the other way around. So I think you need to stay close to yourself and you really need to appreciate the differences as well and that is important. Do not try to be a different person. That is never you'll never work and. You will also people will notice because you when you are playing a role. Uh, yeah, you are not authentic. It does not work, I think. 13. And what advice do you have for men who want to support women better? Interviewee 8 Yeah, maybe also, but I think that is more universal only for men. But think this unconscious bias thing is the. Being to uh, the people are aware that because we all have it, we all have a conscious bias. Uh, yeah. And because it is unconscious, you do not you do not notice. So I think we need to make it conscious. Uh, because without real. Without knowing, without the intention to do so, we probably keep the patterns we do have the same patterns and we need to break that. I think that is where it starts. 14. I think that was my last question for you. Do you have any examples or questions or comments that you have for me? Interviewee 8 No, I do not think so, but I am curious. To know what the outcome is, because I realize I am in, I know what specific part of the company, so there are also other many different experiences. So do you are you also going to share the results? Marja Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah, I always mention at the end of the interview that I have to hand in my thesis and the beginning of June. So in 1 and 1/2 months and then hopefully if I pass the thesis then I will send a copy to everyone that participated in the research. Or create a small summary. Interviewee 8 OK, yeah. Good luck then with your research Marja Thank you for participating!
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 113 Appendix O Transcript Interview 9 Interview #9 Interviewee 9 Hay Grade: 19 Department: General Management and Staff Interview Questions 1. W hen you think about the career journey that you had within FrieslandCampina, what is really helped you, and what has really hindered you in your growth? You already talked a bit about part-time work, but is there anything else that comes up? Interviewee 9 Maybe it depends on the manager you have. What kind of opportunities do you get. I think I was very lucky with my manager in Leeuwarden because he also has more women in his management team than men. So that was uh very new for FrieslandCampina because most of the time there are a lot of men. Something that is really helped me out. Uh, that did not help me was, yeah the opinion that you cannot work in operations as a mother. So that is actually why I stepped out of a operations role. And again there was a woman as a plant manager at the time. So when I stepped over to the Noordwijk factory there was a woman site director but she was working alone and her husband was home with the kids full time. And in Leeuwarden, you had the same, also a woman without children at all. And it took over the behavior of men that a woman cannot work part time in an operations position. So that really hindered me because if that wasn’t the case. I think I never stepped out of production. I mean I was not forced to step out to projects. And the way com reloaded time was that I learned a lot, so that was a good challenge, which I received from my manager. But there is a kind of opinion within FrieslandCampina, which I also heard from another production manager, who used to be in the CI team. And in the talent review that production manager was put on a podium to tell her ambition of becoming a plant manager. And one of the leaders of our company was saying ‘yeah but she just gave birth to a child, so let her first take time f or that before she thinks about a plant manager position’. Ohh so there are there are a lot of there is improvement possibilities and I think I am very lucky in the position where I am right now and I think. If I look back it was also OK, but it is also that I did not know for myself if the ambition. Yeah. So for me it was OK because when I gave birth to the two children, I also wasn't very ambitious and I did not know where I would like to go and what my next steps should be. So I also accepted it. And it did not hurt me or for example, I can imagine that there are women within the company for whom that is different. 2. And yeah, during your career, have you ever experienced or you just gave an example sort of already, but maybe also seeing any sort of discrimination or stereotyping relating to, yeah, a female gender? Interviewee 9 Yeah no, I think the positive, it is also good demand, positive things on salary. I have nothing to complain about because I received a lot of excel on performance results, so if you look at
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 114 my salary I think a lot of men are not at the same. But you also see that is sometimes an issue. So I think that is positive. And what I do see that people, uh most likely a man saying, ‘yeah but you are a woman, you can say that. That would be different or for example, that you have some emotions. And I think emotions are good to share. If they are really is something going on and that is men are saying yeah. But we can we cannot do that you can do that because you are a woman but we can we are not now then we are not strong enough. So that is something, that you really hear within the company. Do I have bad experiences on, yeah the production, of course. Yeah. Or jokes. Yeah. ‘Just put your shirt open and you will manage it’. Uh and then saying it as a joke. I think you cannot do that anymore in the current time. No, but for myself, I did not have a lot of bad experience. Besides discrimination on the on the fact that you would like to work part-time because you also have kids. But I also have to discussion at home with my husband. So that I telling him he can also work for it actually turned out. No my boss it will not accept it then that is also the different discrimination works. It is for men. It is still not acceptable to work part time. I think if you look at the data of recent Campina, I think the percentage man working part-time, it is very much lower than women. Because there is also a kind of a mindset that that is not possible. 3. And do you feel that you are supported by FrieslandCampina to really be the best employee you can be, maybe through mentoring or coaching or trainings? Interviewee 9 No, no, I think improvement. A possibilities are there. For example, I never have been in the young Managers Action program of the future lead programs I am now discussing with the tools. They did notyou do that kind of study. So now at that time I worked part time. And when I started to work full time again as plant manager, I was too old. Uh, so I think we could go and we are customizing it right now. But I think in the past we could customize more because during the time that I would have stepped in in that kind of programs, I became a mother. And I was closed out for a that kind of programs because I wasn't full time geographically worldwide available. 4. And if you look back on that period of when you had your children and you went on maternity leave. Yeah. Did you get good supports maybe before, during or after? Interviewee 9 Yeah, for me it was quite an OK experience, but it is also at the second time my husband was taking a sabbatical because he decided to leave his company, so he was at home. When I went back to work, so that is much easier. And I did not breastfeed, so also there I did not have a bad experience. But I do know that if I look at my own factory, if somebody would like to, yeah, pump breast milk, I do not know any English word. The facilities are low, very low. This going in an office and close the door and hopefully nobody will come in. So I think the facilities or women coming back from maternity leave who would like to keep breastfeeding there, there is a the facilities are not OK. And they also expect you right away to
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 115 be back on the on the normal level. So you come back from maternity leave and. Yeah. And if you are till child is not sleeping at night, yeah, that is your problem. You have to perform again. So I think that no, there is not a lot. I did not have it back bad experience but also we have two. Luckily, our kids sleep very well and are not very often sick. But there is kind of a hard culture on well again. ‘Ohh do you have to stay at home and work from home again with the with the sick child?’ Or and I think that that is more in the production area than it is it in the office area. It is more normal the you inform your colleagues and working from home because myself and have somebody at home who's ill but in production areas it is it is in production areas also March. Or less or less easy, because if you have production meetings within the factory, yeah, it is very difficult to do that from home. So also the situation it makes it more difficult. But we are also not very innovative to change that. 5. Yeah. And do you think that having children has an influence on your career journey? Interviewee 9 Yes. As long as the difference between man and woman will be there. As long as men think, think they do not, they shouldn't take the leave or work one day less in a week or that is for example. If I am in a meeting and I have to take my uh kid from the childcare, then sometimes I say I have to leave at 4:30 because normally I have half an hour drive and now one and half hour and I have to go because I have to pick up my children. And then there is still and then most of the times I work in the evenings because I know I have to finish my work. But you see non- verbal still kind of a sickness that ‘oh, is she going quite that early?’ And I think, yeah, see what I deliver. I delivered the result. My people are happy I am there when the if there is an issue or an incident I am there and not look at the 8:00 to 5:00. Let it be more normal that a man and woman have to take care for their children and most of the time you see that a woman pick it up. Marja Hmm yeah. Interviewee 9 And and that is also why the acceptance level is not high enough. 6. There were some researchers that that really questioned whether, yeah, women's lack of confidence, which is always sort of associated with women, he has an influence on their career advancement and what do you think about that? Interviewee 9 And the lack of it if that we are not comfortable to be at that level. Have, for example, that you are not confident enough to speak up like, hey, I want that role or I think I am good enough or. Yeah, I think Women, are more critical of their own performance, so from that side I think. I can imagine it. For myself, yeah, I did speak up in uh in Leeuwarden. I can do that job. But we'll go step up right now again, if there is an opportunity. Yeah, I really do not know. I really do not know at all. For a lot of women, and also sometimes even in my case, I think that there is a lack of
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 116 confidence. Can we make the next step because of the our bar is very high? Uh, and also can we combine it with children? 7. Yeah, you sort of answered this question a little bit in the beginning already, but uh, there was a research done in the Netherlands that mentioned that 60% of the working women in the Netherlands work part-time. So then anything less than 40 hours. And do you think that that has any influence on why there are fewer females in leadership positions? Interviewee 9 Absolutely. Absolutely. Because we think that. Uh, the higher the hay degree is the more hours you have to work. And I really think we have to change that kind of mindset. It is not normal that if I step over to hay 20 position for example, that I have to work 60 hours a week. And I think that is also the lack of confidence that that woman thinks ‘if they expect that from me, I shouldn't step up. And if you report part time, yeah, then then really it is not possible. And I think it can because it is all depending on the team. On the team you have, if the team is there to do the work and that you are I think you should be available by phone or for any escalation, but you do not have to be present all the time. But we still think that that that presence is the only way to steer a team. Marja Yeah Because you have already also experienced that a little bit yourself when you, uh, wanted to go through the other role, but you were working part-time, but that wasn't possible. Interviewee 9 Yeah. And I and I have shown that it is possible, for example, because I have been four years plan manager in the factory. And yes, I think most of the Fridays I worked an hour from home, I I did a call. But i was not forced to be at the factory every Friday. I could make the choice to stay at home with my children. And the team was running the show, and if they needed me, they called me and I and I gave them advice and they went down and I was 4 years plant manager, four days a week and three of the years ahead in Excel performance. At the end of the year. So it is possible. 8. And in your opinion, why do you think they are less females in leadership positions at FrieslandCampina? Interviewee 9 Yeah, I think the summarize of with of all we have said that part time is not possible. We still think that the. Yeah, there is also a nice example when I had the job interview for Noordwijk and I got a question, how have you arranged it at home with your children? Can you manage your plant manager job? How have you arranged this home that I was saying? Why are you asking this this question? And I also asked my husband and he never have got that question. So they think we cannot manage it. Children at home. Uh and uh, and a drop on a certain position. Marja So you think that that perspective is really what keeps women? From advancing to yeah, hay 20 plus positions?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 117 Interviewee 9 Yes, yeah, yeah. 9. And what do you think Frieslandcampina can do to minimize that gender imbalance? Interviewee 9 Yeah, set some examples and let them tell. There is this possible. So set some examples of woman who can do it and then not the kind of woman I had. A site director and plan manager. So the woman who also thinks as a man. UM, but show us examples. Of woman who also have small children. Working may maybe 36 hours a week and walk the talk. Marja Yeah, maybe Someone Like You. Interviewee 9 Yeah, maybe haha 10. And do you think that FrieslandCampina at this moment, makes good enough of an effort to promote gender diversity? Interviewee 9 Yeah, we do it in words, not by heart. For example, on uh on the 17th of May, we would like to raise the flag. It is also one of the actions of Lesley. And then my operations director saying, yeah, it would be good if a few of you of the factories raised that flag and take some pictures. Yeah. Then you really do not know where you are talking about is not the message. 11. And what advice would you have for women that want to sort of break that glass ceiling? Interviewee 9 Yeah, show them you can and never give up. Yeah, show the good example. Also take your take your maternity leave, take your one day off in the week or tell your yeah, show that you also have the task at home in the in bringing up your kids. 12. Yeah, nice. And if you would be the CEO Friesland Campina, what would you do different? Interviewee 9 You are not to what Kees did 10 years ago, saying that woman are not good enough to be at the top. I do not know. And he said that in the long young leadership meeting with also woman in the in the group. Yeah. And show us that you also have operations positions filled with women on boards level and not only HR or an advice, but show us that you that you that you also have in the higher positions woman in charge so fill the position of that David Chatard with the woman. David Chatard passed away a month ago, so he was, make director for food and beverage. So almost all the operations that position is. There is still a vacancy. So there is nobody on it, but I do know that there will be a man on it.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 118 Marja Yeah, it is almost sort of sad that you can expect that to happen. 13. Yeah, I think those were my questions. Questions for you. Do you have any examples or questions or comments for me? Interviewee 9 No, I am curious at the outcome on the outcome of your research and wish you all the luck with it. Marja Thank you for participating!
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 119 Appendix P Transcript Interview 10 Interview #10 Interviewee 10 Hay Grade: 21 Department: Finance Interview Questions 1. You have had quite a, yeah, a career within FrieslandCampina for a while. And when you reflect upon your career journey that you had, what has really helped you and what has really hindered you in your growth? Interviewee 10 Uh, I think what really helped me is that there always have been opportunities so. What I realized, and I that took a while in my career to realize, that I really kind of had to speak up about what I was looking for in my career, and certain moments I kind of spoke up that I was really looking for a kind of a piloting, pioneering kind of roles and once I realized that, I really felt that there is an opportunity that people start talking about. And so that really helped me in my growth that at this moment kind of these opportunities are then kind of opening up as long as you. Keep talking about it and then I really believe that then a lot of possibilities. But you cannot have to step out of your comfort zone to open up that conversation where something is. Also, you do not exactly know where you want to go. And in the beginning, that is maybe kind of straight away also hindered my growth because in the beginning, like I, I kind of have my entire career and find it in the beginning. I felt like maybe I should move away from finance. But at that time when I opened up those conversations, people talking like, yeah, but why when you do, you want to move out of finance, that is not really possible and. So that is kind of hindering because sometimes you do not know exactly the answer yourself, but even people kind of straight away shut that door like, oh, but it is also not an opportunity. Let's not go there. Just let's proceed in what you are good at. And at the moment, that is fine. So let's just focus on that career path, and let's not take any other directions. Marja No. 2. Have you experienced or may be seen during your career with somebody else, any sort of discrimination or stereotyping because, yeah, they were female, for example. Interviewee 10 Uh, not directly. I believe it always got the opportunities and. At, but maybe indirectly, it does play a role in a sense that. I have even, in general, like the female colleagues, including myself, were always a bit more hesitant to kind of ask for those next steps and speak up about what you want and where you want to be. Where sometimes my male colleagues are being a bit more outspoken in this and then get rewarded for that. Yeah, earlier as well or get invited for their performance. While sometimes just based on ideas of others while the females supplies are bit more position it like it is a team achievement and then also do not get really the rewards. Or are they actually contributed, which then sometimes might limit your career progression because people do not acknowledge really what you are doing. Well, sometimes you can be doing the same thing, that sense, so maybe that is a bit something which I noticed.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 120 Marja Yeah. Interviewee 10 On the other hand, maybe it is wondering, Mark of that it is sometimes that although on the other side as everyone is very much aware of that, we have that KPI, that there is now something feels a bit the other way around where you get promoted, that is kind of going to hear people joking around. It is, yeah, that is just because they are female where you feel that you always have to defend that you also got that position because you are kind of either right person for that role and not just because you are female. 3. And yeah, it is really it is sort of through my previous question, but do you feel that you are treated any different because you are a female? Interviewee 10 No, no. I personally I do not feel it, but also because I am not being too sensitive about it or do not. No, I do not think so. Marja Good 4. And do you feel that you were supported by FrieslandCampina to really be the best employee can be maybe through mentoring or training and coaching? Interviewee 10 Yeah, I think yes, definitely. I think and that is what I am here also already for so many years because I really thought kind of got these opportunities in there. So I think always it always has been and kind of different for kind of learning and development can leadership training, mentoring kind of programs. And I think you are really if you have to do it yourselves, you have to reach out. But I think a lot of people are willing to help you to, coach you to, mentor you. So I think there is plenty of opportunity of people willing to help you in proceeding your career so. Yeah, man. Yeah. I have always felt very supportive in that. Marja Yeah 5. And if you look back on the time you had your maternity leave, did you receive good support or was anything missing? Interviewee 10 No, I think. Definitely good support, and it is always of course a struggle and a challenge where I firstly and that is something I did experience, but that is a bit like the positions that were in so. Actually, my first maternity leave was quite relaxed as I had been in a job for quite a while, so I kind of could really kind of close off for that time. But with my second one I was just in Malaysia and you still feel that you kind of have to prove yourself so that I kind of could not almost take the full maternity leave. So I have kind of worked as long as possible also because in Malaysia that is kind of the common practice with all the ladies are doing. So then it feels a bit awkward to go maternity leave way before you deliver as well, so.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 121 I did work there a bit longer than we normally do in the Netherlands, and then also of course you feel the pressure to be back on track very quickly as well. And that was a bit the same with my first one where I was also just sent a new job where it is always a bit of a challenge to kind of balance. You want to take some time off with the other hand. You know as well that and maybe that is a personal thing as well where I felt like, yeah, if I am kind of totally. The face out and I really do not know what's going on and then I will be even more difficult time to get back. So yeah, I have always been a bit online and but I was really fine with that as well. So it is I think for me it worked. Marja Mm-hmm 6. And, um, yeah. When you went on maternity, was there a replacement for you? Interviewee 10 No. Three times. No, no. All the three of these. No. Marja Yeah, because the work was then distributed to your, to your teammates. Interviewee 10 For the other roles, I kept doing a bit myself as well as the fact, so that is yeah, it was a bit. On purpose as well. So where we kind of made a plan that we of course kind of the bare minimum things would continue within the team a couple of responsibilities were distributed to other people. So you kind of really skilled down the role and said actually that is more effective than having someone replacing me where it takes more time for the people coming to get that person up to speed and you are almost back again then kind of having them some additional responsibilities and also give them the opportunity to step up. So there must kind of very purposeful decision with our managers. At a time, and also with my report, because for they had to step up during that time. So I think that that actually that worked very well and I I was very happy with that decision. 7. OK. And do you then think that having children has an influence on your career journey? Interviewee 10 Yes. You of course definitely have to be somehow more efficient, where of course in the in the past kind of you always have time and you work longer hours and so you kind of you have to make your decisions on how much time you can spend on everything in your life. But in the end, I think it did notkind of slow down my probably. I think it is still, yeah. It is more just kind of really those are the phases where you kind of take a step back and reflect on where you are in your career. And I own on permitted decision every could still move abroad and we kind of continue that journey. But I could only do that because my husband was very supportive as well. Yeah, of course. Yeah, he has to do his part in taking care of the kids that as well especially when we are abroad where I spend a lot of time working and travelling as well so. It is kind of a family thing to make that work. 8. I have done quite some research on the whole topic of gender diversity. And there were a lot of researchers who really questioned that, you know, female have sort
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 122 of lack of confidence and that is really influenced their career advancements. And I was just wondering what you think about that, if you agree or? Interviewee 10 Yeah, I do agree. At least from a personal reflection, if that is something I always talk about my coach with some leadership programs as well. Where you kind of feel that you. Yeah, you easier take a step back and kind of do not be on the front and ask what you need or if certain position. Where I think in general and that females apply when they feel like they are at least 80% fit for the role while the guys are playing and there are 20% fit and they just yeah blessed that way in if that is the correct thing you work but I mean that is. Feel like going to have to kind of. I feel bad that you are very loyal and also kind of pressure to be there and to perform so yes I think that is sometimes can hold you back from your career advancement as well. 9. And another company has done research specifically in the Netherlands that they found that 60% of the working woman in the Netherlands work part-time. So anything less than 40 hours. And do you think that that hasn't influenced on, yeah, sort of the lack of females in leadership positions? Interviewee 10 Yes. Also I am purpose always have been working full time because I feel as well that other certain positions, especially when you get into the management teams, it also of course still sometimes where you work like 36 hours or something, it can work out. And in general it is very difficult when you are not present all the time and the other present. So I can very much imagine that if you decide to start working part-time you kind of yeah are being left out a bit and then at a certain moment it does not really work anymore and the where sometimes also. That that actually the situation with a female colleague who was indeed working 36 hours, but actually she was working every night as well. So she spent definitely the same amount of hours and we were on the team with a lot of guys as well. But everyone had young kids. So I was a bit common practice at a Friday afternoon around 3:00 or 4. Everyone anyhow should down their left off because they want to go to families kind of spend it Friday afternoon and she kind of works pretty 6 hours to kind of officially have that Friday afternoon. This is about everyone has taken that afternoon. So yeah. And this requisition you have need to have that flexibility as well. And anyhow you work more hours. So where I think sometimes the women feel that they kind of have to then officially requests to take some time off, sometimes when it just fits your Diaries, where the guys say and you have that 40 hour work week and that would just fit in those things as well without asking for that permission to do so. Marja Yeah, because some with some females that I talked to, they really mentioned maybe having like a role model in like a higher position that does sort of mix and match that having a part- time sort of job and managing the kids and managing a good position. But yeah, I think so. The other women I spoke to that is seems to be very impossible to do too. Interviewee 10 Yeah, but it is something I think you have to make at a certain point of decision as well. Kind of thing at a certain moment, it is very difficult to manage roles part time. So I think that is also kind of if you want to proceed to a certain position then yes, it includes working full time as
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 123 well. But I do see as well that there is a lack of role models of females kind of managing that because the ones who are managing that are already forced and fully focused on their work people like that is not where I want to be or I mean they do not get there. So kind of role models who kind of are balancing that. We do not have many of them who kind of at least, are also kind of displayed as a role model. Of course, I know some female colleagues, we do a great job on managing that, but kind of having them as a mentor and that is something would be very helpful because sometimes you feel as well that that the role models you see, you feel like that is not the position I want to be in. And also because I feel guilty that I am a certain time when you are a certain level, that if you go to your so yesterday afternoon I went to soccer match with my daughter because what I just want to be there and it is also calling to actually they were like ohh you do that as well. Yeah of course like that is so but I think in in general that then the women feel a bit more guilty than you cannot do those things when you when you are at a certain level anymore, so they feel they do not have any flexibility if you work full time so then it is not going to work out anymore but I am still the guys are kind of balancing out there as well so. But I do recognize that. 10. Yeah. Yeah. And in your opinion, what do you think that there are less females in leadership positions that frieslandcampina? Interviewee 10 Yet still I think it is. It is also of course still the way how. It is almost a bigger cultural question. How things are arranged in the Netherlands. It is still of course low, because childcare simply is very expensive. So you must really like what you are doing and yet to really go that extra mile and. That people feel as well, I think it is kind of somewhat difficult. I do see quite some colleagues who have kids and I think they are very smart and copy the ones kind of back on track in their career, but sometimes feels as well that once they made a decision is kind of a lifetime decision and you almost do not see that people kind of. Are all better, slower career path for a while, because then you are kind of also earmarked ours or you are not ambitious and once you kind of have that label and it is pretty difficult to get back on track. While I kind of imagine where kids are a bit older and go to high school and yeah, you have more flexibility again and you can really kind of advance your career again. But when you kind of are making that decision, then you are kind of out of that of your own on the career track and maybe that is also something which is happening. And also sometimes it is simply also just something's difficult to combine, but now it is getting better that you do not have to spend your whole week at the office where it is gives more flexibility to bring or pick up the kids and. Yeah, yeah, but that has for me personally. So those .. as well, where I could imagine that. I really like what I am doing. But if you kind of are, it is like, this is really too much effort to combine everything too much hassle and it is not worth it. 11. Yeah, yeah. And what do you think FrieslandCampina can do to minimize that gender imbalance in top positions? Interviewee 10 I am having a really start with those role models as well, so to have the balance in the team. I did kind of experience myself and I am not back in a in a corporate role where the typically
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 124 there are more older males around so that all the meeting start at 8:00 in the morning which is terrible for me because I am trying to drop off the kids in the morning. So you are always late for a meeting and then majority is there. So they do not reschedule, but you are the one kind of being late where if you have that mixture in a team which I hadn't 350 when there is much more measures kind of have is not going to be there. So it is kind of. Balance what? What is in the best interest of the entire group, and this is just an example, but I think if you have that balance in your teams, it will work out as well and you are not the only ones who have to pick up the kids or kind of. Yeah, I have a problem where I had in one of my jobs where we had kind of the grades make sure in the management team and we my husband and I made a bit of miscommunication and who's picking up the kids. So I end up with my kids at the office and the whole team was. Ohh no problem. We'll kind of make some paintings for them drawings. And give them something to do and just do not worry about it. And that felt so great and such a big relief. That is not that. You are not in big trouble. Where definitely in my team where I am today, I would have been very uncomfortable. My dad would happen so. Kind of that that creating that surrounding where kind of there is that flexibility, I think that that is very yeah, very helpful. Marja Yep, yeah. maybe also, for example, with maternity leaves, that is obviously for for the mother who, you know, gives birth to the default. But I think it should also maybe be more of a father thing to do as well, because I think now think in August in the Netherlands, mails can take a longer paternal leave and still get like 70% of their salary. But I think that is also maybe starting point to sort of make men more accountable for that to take their leaves and to not make it such a feminine thing to do. Interviewee 10 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And especially more helpful, helpful as well. Like when women start working again after maternity leave, your girlfriend can be a bit more because it is like when they are that young, not from day one. You want to put them in healthcare or the whole week, for example. So when you do not have that flexibility bit more than your husband can be around, you kind of balance it out together that we can be very helpful as well indeed. 12. And do you think that FrieslandCampina at this moment makes good enough of an effort to promote gender equality? Interviewee 10 Yes, yeah, yeah. It is always that. It gets a bit difficult. I do not really believe in too much promoting it as well because then it feels almost a bit that you are where you are because just of your gender and that is what I really do not want as well. So I really feel in in general, no matter what's general anyhow that we are very inclusive and open to everyone. So yeah, I feel very comfortable with that. So I would not say that we have to step up on kind of that communication on that on gender. I do feel although, for example, you have been seeing given code for that, at least in my perception, a lot of also our female talents actually left because teams that they really needed that. Respond to that and I think that is for me more important than yeah, more communication. 13. And what advice do you have for women that really wants to break that glass ceiling from, you know, hey, Hay 18 Hay 19 to Hay 20 plus?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 125 Interviewee 10 Just be open about what you want. And that does not have to be specific about a certain role, but just be open about what you like, or if you also, if you foresee any struggles or. But yeah, I would say dare to speak up and then there if you do that, then you realize as well I think that they are not a real ceiling that there is a lot of possibilities. 14. Yeah, yeah. And what advice you have for men that maybe could support women better in that? Interviewee 10 Yeah, look into options as well. So at this can be options on how combined, how to combine certain roles or sometimes are also pretty much focused on we have this position, this is what you need to do so much more look from what are someone's qualities and capabilities and how can we really use that instead of kind of being quite rigorous. And I think in general as well that we see there is a lot of talented people leave because they are eager to do something different and we sell them. Just hold on because we need to wait and I think especially for women, if they feel like how this is not really what I want. So I think for men also like kind of being open to this kind of conversations. What is it? People really want to do within their jobs or how can you be flexible or. Yeah. 15. Yeah, I think that was my last question for you. Do you have any questions or examples or comments that you would like to raise to me? Interviewee 10 No, it is interesting as well. What I really learned from also my time in in in Asia there are a lot of people working so there it works totally different as well. So sometimes nice to keyframes from a from a different perspective as well. I think there we can learn a lot by certain things work in a certain way in certain countries and how they deal with that. But sometimes as well, and that is what I an experience that when you are a bit more critical about also people in your performance about people in your team and it is ohh you are tough one or well it needs a man our stereotype and they take the ball decisions well. Women are something a bit easier to put away. So you are the bit you want or so I think something good to. Be a bit mindful about that. So that is something I see happening. Yeah. And nothing goes details. Those role models are important as well. And I think also for the women in those positions. And I mean, I should be a bit more aware about myself, but also to reach out to people around you and kind of make sure they are open and you are open to these kind of mentoring or just a coffee chat conversations that people feel as well. Those are people easy to reach out to. Yeah, easy to make that connection with. Marja Yeah Interviewee 10 Yeah, yeah. If you have more flexibility in that, it is yeah. And I think definitely now as well, like you can work from home and that we have those hybrid ways of working that link definitely. Will help already as well and also a very simple and practical thing. Also the facilities at the office so. And the room where you can do your breastfeeding, etcetera. I try to book it. And there was always full and that is not really motivating to go back to the office
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 126 where you are kind of a fresh mom with your hand already anyhow, not really at the office. And I mean you kind of have to struggle with those practical things that yeah, you cannot do the things you have to do that is challenging as well. That is so something. It is also just to make sure that there are proper facilities for. New moms and yeah, that they can just be at ease once they are back at the office. And yeah, that is a very practical thing, which I experience myself. And that is not always in place. And I was like, OK with it, but I can imagine that for some women, this can be really a blocker as well to go back. Yeah, yeah. And especially because sometimes people just book it and everyone somehow needs, of course, a little bit the same slots. So then it is always fully booked and you really have to plan in advance. And when you are at that day, the office, you did not plan it then? Yeah, you have to go back to the toilets. Marja Yeah no that is not ideal no Interviewee 10 Yeah no exactly
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 127 Appendix Q Transcript Interview 11 Interview #11 Interviewee 11 Hay Grade: 18 Department: Supply Chain Interview Questions 1. And could you tell me a little bit about, yeah, how you got to where you are today, so a little bit of your career path? Interviewee 11 Yeah, sure. If you look at my career path, I have really started at the bottom. So I have my, I have a good degree, but I really started with my hands in the dirt. So I was a team leader in production in three shifts for three years. So I know I know everything, how you make it. I know the ropes. I was responsible for about 25 people on the shift. So really I at 24 taking a lead over about 25 men and women three times my age, telling them what to do, what not to do. It will it will make you grow as a manager real fast. UM and because I made several switches like I just said before I moved to R&D, I got an opportunity. I am, but it is always been quite I have had to work extremely hard to make next steps and really prove myself and really say, think about me. I am. I am really good. I want this, so I have been seeing sometimes have an opportunist opportunist. Ohm because I have always been pushy of myself, a perfectionist, but also pushing to my managers. Why do not I get that job? I want that job. Give me that job. What do I need to do to get that job? It is been it is not always been an easy job, but I yeah, I got. I got there. So and then the end, when you prove yourself that you are. Yeah, you are good. Or you are worth it. Then you can you do it. But I also grabbed every opportunity there was. So I had an opportunity. To go to London, to work for the my previous company's largest menu margarine factory and become the quality manager there. The factory was an absolute shit state. They actually wanted a man. There, he did not want to mow go and I said I will go and I said ohh, Are you sure you are married? This guy was married too. Uh, So what? I said 'Why you do not let me go. If I fail, I fail hard. If I succeed, I will succeed very hard.' And of course, If you work hard. You succeed. So I succeeded. But I have really had to grab the opportunities and push myself forward. And when I moved to FrieslandCampina, I started in a global role. And it was quite a good opportunity and easy process in getting this position. But I was unhappy, as it was just too broad and no sense of the real business and what you are doing. And then when I wanted to go to the fighting unit, they said I was overqualified. I said 'No, I am not overqualified, the job is underrated'. Said I will show you that the job is underrated and you think the job is smaller than it actually is, and a year later they think, Oh my God, we are so happy we got you because the job is huge. 2. And yeah, when you did not reflect upon your career journey, what is really helped you and what is really hindered you in your yeah career growth? Interviewee 11 What really helped me is that I got an internal sponsor. I call it. So really somebody uh or was a senior. I still I know very. I have my whole career to thank to him. He was like my work dad. He was an older a bit older than me and believed in me and coached me and I got him to he can also called me an opportunist, but I explained to him about what I want. I want a career I
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 128 do not want to. I am. I am ambitious. I want to grow in knowledge in the broad, but also in the in the height, in in levels and any support it. And that is the only way that I could move. Uh, and I think within FrieslandCampina, I need the same and I have not grabbed it yet. I have not found the right sponsor, so to say. Uh to help me in that path. Because I am not done growing. 3. Has anything that you can remember hindered you? Maybe a little bit or held you back in a sense? Interviewee 11 Yeah. In the past, a lot in the past and I hope for now for the younger women who start it is different. But when I was in my 25 / thirties, I was asked almost weekly. "When are you going to have kids?". And really, when I was ill at home with a headache, they talked about me. "I am sure she is pregnant." And that really hindered that, also hindered to say, OK, yeah, but she'll get pregnant soon. So let's move this person further and let's move that person further. So that was a real, real blocker for me and I really had to fight that intensively. I do not have children, by the way, but it shouldn't matter if I did or not. And that that was a real, real blocker, yeah. Marja Yeah, we crazy that they just are sort of waiting for you to get kids and then say oh, she is getting kids now. Interviewee 11 Yeah. Yeah. So that was one, I think another is it it is the softer side. It is I think women we need to be as tough as men or more and tell others we are worth it. We are to passive sometimes for our careers and that is so we block ourselves. But also I think a lot is to do with an 'old boys club.' Which I really see now in FrieslandCampina top as well. It is an old boys club. They are Gray old men, white men. And they all have very classic a wife at home who does not work or partially work, so they have to do nothing. And the modern families relationships you, you both have your end. Both partners if you or if you have a partner or you do your same wait at home and you do not have to. Yeah. I think that is difference as well. Yeah. So it is also gets a bit scary if you in a way because I can grow at least 2 levels that I really want. But if more you are in an old boys club, they have a different language and you are not. I am not sure you are easily, well, warmly welcomed. They say you will, but it if it feels that way, I am not sure. 4. Umm, and yeah, you already mentioned it a little bit with the that people expect you to get pregnant, but have you experienced or may be seen at and maybe other women, any sort of discrimination or stereotyping relating to their gender? Interviewee 11 No, no. Umm, I do see FrieslandCampina. It is difficult to get a women who will go on maternity leave to get them replaced because headcount and so on. And then if you do not replace these ladies, you say it is not worthwhile what you are doing. We can do without your job for four months.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 129 So they, it is not said it is the impression. And it is extremely difficult to get somebody replaced, especially in the higher actually in all functions. I mean either of either you do not need this function or this position or you do. And if you do, you need to replace some money you will use for four or five months. And this is this I see is difficult on a struggle. To get the FTE approved for and that. Yeah, that does not give you a nice impression, I think, but real discrimination, no, I have not seen our experienced, no. 5. And do you feel that you were treated any different because you are a woman? Interviewee 11 In the past more than now, but I am also a bit older and I do not care anymore, so I have grown. Yeah. You know, I have a tough skin. But when I when I was a junior and started. Yeah, for sure for sure. Umm I I like I said. I started in in three shifts. Uh, my career. And then it was, well, yeah. Women in a shift. Oh, so I got the opportunity. But I did have to prove myself more than my male colleagues who started at the same time, or at least that was. The impression given but. Marja Yeah 6. And do you feel that you are supported by FrieslandCampina to really be, Yeah, the best employee can be? Maybe through. Yeah. A mentor or coach or a sponsor as you mentioned Interviewee 11 Yes, I do have that impression, but I do not. I did not find the right sponsor yet and I my current manager is not the right coach for me. Marja Mm-hmm. Interviewee 11 So I do not have. How do I say he does not? He cannot help me. And I find this very difficult in this company to find a person and they need to be a few levels higher than yourself to be a sponsor and to coach and to say look, you need to do step ABC then you can you can. Position yourself or think about this and give some more PR for yourself and they can talk about you to other levels. I find it very, very difficult and free to compete now to find a person who can do that male or female. So I do not my previous sponsor was a male so it does not need to be female. But I have not found them. I cannot find them yet. So that is concerning because I need to I want to. There islevels to go. 7. There were some researchers that really questioned women's lack of confidence that that has a pretty negative influence on their career. And that was just wondering what you think about that? Interviewee 11 I think it is right because I have read some studies as well. Women do not ask for a pay raise and a man will do will. Ohm and I think it is a bit maybe how we are taught as children as, as, as from young age show yourself and you can come get there. So I think it is a bit part of our the women nature but yeah.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 130 Marja But you have not experienced that yourself? Interviewee 11 Not, not. Not directly, no. 8. And yeah, there was another research done specifically in the Netherlands that mentioned that, uh, 60% of the working woman in the Netherlands work part time. And do you think that it has any influence on? Yeah. The fact that there are just fewer women on leadership positions? Interviewee 11 Sure, for sure. My whole career, I have worked full time, 40 hours and it only if I wanted to reduce half a day or a day, I would for sure be a carrier killer. So I never did that. The only that was really should have been a show stopper for me. For my career and I have seen that for other women as well who wanted to work less. My previous company is a more old fashioned company than FrieslandCampina because many mail men at a my previous company never worked part time. And that is then meant they would move quicker in their career. They would make quicker changes. And I have seen men make a change from one field to another field way more quicker than if I ask for the same switch, say to marketing. It was a time I wanted to move to marketing and they said no, no, they are younger women and men who are cheaper than you and OK and I saw a mail my age. My experience do exactly what I wanted to do and I thought that was odd. But at FrieslandCampina I find it a little bit less. Experience. Because I also see some a few men now. Younger men take parental leave and also women at a bit higher levels also working part-time. Half a day lesson. So 32 hours it is not major but. So it is a bit less, but if you work. Much more part time than just. Yeah. Four and a half, four, four and a half days is the minimum you need to work to still move. Move further. I think or like. But I think it is as well as so women will more work more part-time than male, but I think it is for both it works both ways actually. If you work too only three days a week, it is very difficult to manage a team because you are not there for two days. You miss too much. But you do see women work more part time than men, so it will definitely limit your career. 9. Umm. And in your opinion, what do you think that there are less females in leadership positions at FrieslandCampina? Interviewee 11 Yeah, my manager said and he is a male, he said. Well, women take a when they take a paternity leave, they are out of the business for four or five months and you actually then need to almost start over again. Prove yourself again and then and then move, move forward. And I think he mentioned that that was one of the key elements. Why it does not move quicker. But I also think it is a that we are just we do not shout enough. And if we do shout, we are not heard. So I think those that is a that is even more because even if you are working, you have had children. I mean you can still make the new CEO, why not? There are some examples, but there are very few and above very few.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 131 Marja Yeah. Yeah, I think that would be really great facilitator also to have role models that explain like, hey, I am at this really high position and I work part-time or four days, four and half days in the week. And I have children and I have a partner that maybe works as well and I can do it so. Interviewee 11 Exactly. Yeah. What just started? I think it is nice to tell you because. When I when I just left my previous company, they were just piloting there to have a dual job. So actually at very high positions in the company have men or women, but they were typically women. Of course, having a dual job. So one position, 2 ladies working the same job, they had one email address as well and they worked both three days a week. So there was overlap of one day. So you got actually two brains for the same job and it was very, very effective and both could do a really part time job. They had always back up and holidays where was real win, win and they were piloting that. I'd love to see that within this company. Marja Yeah, that is. Yeah. I have never even thought of. Interviewee 11 There were. You were. Yeah, they were. Young's young, young women. They were VP level and they had, yeah, they wanted to be at home two days a week for the, for the family or whatever or other private life. You do not even have to have kids to work part time. But I think that will be a really nice opportunity to launch. 10. And then, yeah, that is sort of relates to my next question, which you already answered a little bit, but what can FrieslandCampina do to really minimize that gender imbalance at the top? Interviewee 11 I think Coach, coach, coach, women more. Pick out a few ladies. That is who wants have the ambition and then help. Really, really help their career. So be there. Sponsor. So to say. Yeah. And really make efforts of it as FrieslandCampina. And do not. Uh yeah, I also feel really I am a very big feminist, but I also believe you need to write a person for the right job if it is male or female. Uh, you need the right person, but if you do not coach women a little bit more and give them a bit more this sponsorship, the men will always win. So I think that is one of the key things. And be and be open to this new idea I just gave you. 11. And yeah, do you think that threesome Campina at this moment makes good enough of an effort to promote gender equality? Interviewee 11 I think we are trying. I think we are really trying and especially in diversity. We are promoting, so we are now in, in doing a trial in, in fighting unit Netherlands that you can swap a holiday. So you do not need to have Easter off, but you can also take the 'suikerfeest'. The holidays, you can swap them. It is a trial. Yeah, why not? Not everybody believes in in Easter or what's this day off. So I think. I think that those are some really small pockets that I think are really good. At least we are talking about it. I think that is, uh, that is the key. And that is a start.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 132 I think we can do more, but if you ask me, really what I am not really sure. Yeah, I think the sponsorship is a is a good one and build maybe a small network of ladies like a small community force it a bit because if you do not enforce things or push it, it will never happen. So force a small group of women who have the ambition and put a coach on it or sponsor internal-external and talk about things and how can we build a career of one of these. Of the ladies. I think a small women network will help. 12. Umm. And then what advice would you have for women that really are looking to break that glass ceiling in their career? Interviewee 11 Take various roles, so do not stay in your lane so in not in, you are only in your expertise. To move to different type of jobs. Do factory get your hands dirty literally move to different area, move to R&D. Go back to production go. So switch a few times when you are young because then you have a really broad field and then you build your expertise and then nobody can tell you something different because you know you have been there. And when you have the knowledge you can scream and shout and find a sponsor quick. Somebody who believes in you and who can guide you through your career or. Yeah. I think that is the good ones, yeah. 13. And then what advice you have for men that are looking to, yeah, support those women better. Interviewee 11 That they can be the sponsor. They can. So yeah, they can be this, this sponsor and actually have some coaching conversations or common advice. And if we have this small women group or something, I do not know how it sounds a bit like a tea club, but I do not but like. Yeah. How? How did they do their career? How come you can make a you? You made the made the changes. What do they do different? Find out where their strength lies so we can steal with pride. I think they talk about more about their what they want than we do than women do. We need to really be more bold and say I want this. I am not letting go. And this is what I did when I was younger and they got so sick and tired of me. I want this job. I want this job. I can do it. Let me do it. That was my only the way I could break my glass ceiling at that time, yeah. 14. Yeah. I think those were the questions that I really wanted to ask you is there any questions or comments or stories or examples that you that you have for me? Interviewee 11 I think that is I tell the most of them. Uh to you I think. Ohh I like to have some role models to see who are some good role models and if they are open to yeah to coach or be the sponsor so to say of a few or coach this small group of ladies who want to move a career and it does not have to be supply chain only it can be a mix because I think disciplines can learn from each other. Uh, I think that is a nice one and I'd like to ask you. Yeah, I hope you can present something, or at least that it is also. Yeah, of course you will present. But I mean broad FrieslandCampina. So it does not stay with just your small group that it grows because the more we talk about it broadly. I think the more awareness there will be also in other uh in the higher levels who need to hire the ladies, the women. That if you talk about it more than only then it will happen now.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 133 Appendix R Transcript Interview 12 Interview #12 Interviewee 12 Hay Grade: 22 Department : HR Interview Questions 1. And if you sort of, yeah, reflect upon that career journey that you have had, what has really helped you and what has really hindered you in your yeah career growth? Interviewee 12 Well, I have been quite lucky. I guess that I have grown quite fast over the years in a different role. So not a lot has hindered me in the years, I think. I was thinking about who I was. I was listening to or watching, watching a nice video about key people in life. And it started making me think about who we are, my key people in my life and especially more in my professional life who opened doors for me and who give me opportunities to grow. And I think one of the main persons who I am very grateful for all though she got quite fast into a burnout when I started at the global talent department but. The director of Talent. And she actually truly believed me because it was quite a big leap for me to start it. That role was a global role. I was quite junior back then, still, and it was quite a responsibility to take up such a role. But she really believed, believed in me, although I did not have all the HR background. But back then, and she, she just looked at my potential, and I thought that I would learn quite fast and I would get all that more in-depth HR knowledge quite fast and. And those were the people. I think that is that has helped me a lot in my whole career. So I have got a couple of those people who actually said well, she might not have the full background or the necessary background for the role. But we can see the potential that he can grow quite fast in it, and that has helped me a lot in making those steps. And getting those and getting those opportunities to actually start those roles, yeah. And I said I do not think a lot hindered me over time. Uh, I must say that you have this period in your life where it all becomes quite hectic, because when you are when you are getting kids. And you are in. Perhaps in that fast track where I was in. So you could you already got quite some responsibility, and you have an ambition as well which I did then a lot of things come together in in a short time frame where you have just think of how am I going to manage this all and looking back at that time sometimes that is just really overwhelming and I also see women's struggling for in in those in in in those time frames where. They need to juggle with all these different elements in there in their life. Sometimes it is just not fair. There are so many things that come together in that one piece of, well, let's say, 5 to 10 years of your life. There was the, and that was sometimes difficult one and I then and then. It does not help when you have people around you who do not really realize what it means for a young woman to be in to one have a getting a baby going on maternity leave, going back on maternity leave, what this does with physically with your, with your body and with your mind. And then not giving them space. And I think I managed, but I think we are not good as FrieslandCampina. We are not good and really proactively managing the process. 2. And during your career, have you ever experienced or maybe seen any sort of discrimination or stereotyping relating to your gender?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 134 Interviewee 12 For me specifically, I have not. I have not felt it. I got loads of opportunities actually to grow. Uh, I am not sure if it is intended. The people do it, but I think it is more that they are not conscious of the fact that it might actually do because they have certain biases, and they, you know, we all know the theorem, the old boys' network. I think that is still that still counts. You know, it is. And I still even see it in some of the teams that that are in our organization, in, in ingredients organization. Well, they can get quite masculine in the way they talk with each other, the way they joke with each other, and not include women that well in the team, I do not think that intentionally they actually block them the career of ladies, but ladies get by doing it for showing such behavior they get less secure by themselves they get more insecure and therefore they I think they are they do not put up their hands as easily as men do men are a lot more confident than women most of the time and then at generalizing it bit now but. But my more confident, so I think it is sometimes a bit limiting for women, but I do not think it is intentional. 3. Umm. And yeah, this question sort of related to the previous one, but do you feel that you were treated any different because you are a woman? Interviewee 12 Umm, right now or over the years? Marja Could be both Interviewee 12 I felt that I was treated differently when I was pregnant at that time. They and then sometimes, and it is two ways. So when you were pregnant in the app and I got the three, three times. So that is quite a lot in five years' time. People, I think, start to think for you what's best for you, and I really hated it because I thought I am. I am the boss of my own body. I can indicate if it is going right or wrong or just and when it is too much or not too much. Or so I felt that as a I did not like that that the time actually to be honest. And then when you come back from your maternity leave. And I did not have it so much, but I see people. Women arrived, me who do have. Have it. You need to restart your whole system again. You need to restart your brain activity again. It is just science, right? So you need to train it again. When you went off and when returning to leave, but when you got pregnant and what I hear now when I am paying much more attention to it. What I hear right now is a man saying, "yeah, OK. She is not yet on her level again, or on the level I want it to be. And then, and yeah, it is probably because she is just coming back from maternity leave, but she really needs to step up." So. So on the one hand, they say, it is because of. But they judge you still. So they think for you when you, when you are actually in the phase before you, you go maternity leave, and when you are so, it is on both sides. For me, it is just not realistic before and after and then not listening well to what the women actually saying about what they can do or cannot do? 4. Umm. And do you feel that you are supported by FrieslandCampina to really be the best employee can be, maybe through mentoring or coaching or training?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 135 Interviewee 12 Yeah, I think I think in general, if you look not specifically for women, but I think in general, we are doing quite a lot to support our employees in their development. We have a lot in place for them. Uh to choose from whether whole packages around learning and development elements, and we stimulate the continuous dialogue quite a bit that managers and employees go into dialogue to talk about their development and what they want to grow and what they want to strengthen. And so I think we do quite a lot. I do not think we I think we can do a lot more in supporting women in going through certain phases in their life and what that actually means for them and how others experience it. And coach and coach and mentor ladies in, in, in, indifferent way. So we do a lot more on capability building, for example or personal effectiveness, et cetera. But this is a whole different topic. To mentor and to coach on. And I do not think we have that yet. Well, in place, when I actually joined FrieslandCampina in 2010 or 11, I am not sure which year anymore. I think after one or two years I actually had some conversations. We had a sort of platform where we had seen senior female leaders. And yeah, and there is a woman on the ELT board. She was on that in, in that board or I do not know what they call the platform committee as well. And we just had open conversations about what you experienced. And I still can remember that one of them, who were talking about and the playground mafia and she said that you are so judged sometimes by other mothers and it is it has changed over the years of course but. But you were so judged when you were working as a full-time mother, and especially ten years ago. That, and that gave me so much, so much support, and ohh I am not the only one who goes through this, and perhaps I even took the way a bit to some of these feelings, because if they did something with me, but I did not want to actually acknowledge that they did something with me. And when you have such conversations with ladies and senior positions who went through the same process and the same feelings, it really felt comforting for me. Yeah, that is. There, there are other ways, yeah. Marja Yeah, maybe also, in a sense, role models. Interviewee 12 Yeah. No. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. I watched a Dutch TV series about why women do not work, and I think every woman in the Netherlands should watch that because it gives a completely different perspective on part-time working versus full-time working and that we are actually in an alliance. We are quite abnormal in the way we have. We have organized it herein, in our country compared to the rest of the total work. And then, all of a sudden, you feel, ohh wow. So actually, those parts I am woman are more of the. Gotten and nobody is it is everybody should choose it for themselves. But it you start to become they feel that you are actually quite normal working full time as an as a mother instead of being the alien in on that on that school playground. Yeah. 5. And so you mentioned that you have a, you have children yourself, and you already spoke a little bit about it. But yeah, if you look back on those three times that you had your maternity leaves, did you receive good support?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 136 Interviewee 12 Yeah, well, most of the time, I think I, I manage it. I am I just managed it myself that if I feel I miss anything and then I will ask for it or arrange it. But I felt a lot of support from my managers back then from the teams they visited me, we stayed quiet in contact. Yeah, in those months. So I am not. I do not think I missed anything specifically. But there was also nothing there. So I might not have missed anything because I do not expect anything, or I am perhaps a bit different, I do not know. But there was also nothing on support or how you are when you are going back some advice or tips or conversation with somebody who went through it and just went you on it. So there was actually nothing there. You just go on maternity leave you do your handover. I even worked a bit still in my in my return. And he left because we had something still running. And then you have, you have the baby, you have a couple of weeks, and you start working, and it is all back to normal. There is nothing. There is nothing there, actually. Marja Yeah. Yeah, because did you have a replacement? Uh, all three times when you went to maternity? Interviewee 12 First time yes. No, the last time I was in between I switched to another role, so I handed it over to my successor, and I think for the other two, yes. Yeah. 6. And do you think that, yeah, having children has an influence on your career? Interviewee 12 Well, not for me, obviously. Yeah, but. But I do think that, and that is perhaps a bit of broader thinking in the Netherlands, it is still quite common for women, and it is changing right now. But in the Netherlands is quite common. That first, women start working part-time, and then it might be the case that the man also started working part-time as well. So and it is becoming more equal now that you see that it is more dual than both. Both parents, actually. Take care of the baby one day, a week, or multiple days the week. I think that is a concept of that culture that we created over the years and I am very happy that it is changing right now does prevent certain women from actually get into certain rules which require some time full-time, full-time employment because it is simply it is quite difficult. I think my role, for example, is quite difficult if you if you do it part-time, everything is possible of course, but it is quite difficult and in most other countries around us you see that almost everybody is working full time. So it is not that big, it is not a big of a deal, but I think herein, in the Netherlands, it is preventing some, some, some lady, some women to actually grow in your organization, yeah. Yeah, I actually feel that getting children and we eat it when you are a man or woman it is it enriches your life because you just get different perspectives. You get direct feedback. So it changes. A person is for me. So you are getting your richness of who you are and is becoming bigger and therefore it is also. It also gives you a certain perspective on things so, so. So what is actually important in life? What is your legacy? You want to leave behind, and that for me also changed the way I looked at work, and what do you want to achieve in work? What is your legacy that you are also thinking of for your children? What is the legacy you want to leave behind in an organization?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 137 So I think it can add truly to your own development, and that can help in your career because moving up to in the ranks. People management thinking about people leaving a legacy and giving direction is becoming much more important, so it can help in that sense. But the system in the Netherlands is not supportive. 7. There were quite some researchers who really questioned whether women's lack of confidence. Yeah, sort of has a negative influence on their career advancement, and I was just wondering what you think about that? Interviewee 12 Yeah, I just mentioned it already a bit, right. Umm, I think it by nature that men are more confident than women. Uh, so that is, I think it truly impacts. It truly impacts the chances of women to grow in the organization because they do not put themselves out there. They do not put themselves in the spotlight. They are not the first one to raise their hands and say I will pick this up, and therefore they are less visible. And then the men sometimes in your organization and they I think they also feel that there is still I think a lot of women feel that just by working really hard it is seen. And that the efforts are seen and that is enough. It is just not enough. You know you just need to make sure that you are out there, that you also have good relationship management and that you have your stakeholders aware of who you are and that take your scene in the organization and that needs a certain that that needs a certain assertiveness and confidence. And therefore, I think men are easily picked for certain roles because they are just more visible. 8. And yeah, in FrieslandCampina, why do you think that there are fewer women in leadership positions? Interviewee 12 I think there is still a bit of history of that old boys network that was there. We did not have a lot of real female role models in your organization, and we did not use it last year as well. Those role models to actually support and help them mentor actually the better things that we are talking about in, in the, in their journey as well to this to those to those roles. And for me, we have not really proactively steered on it as well, if you can. Really, if you put extra efforts into recruitment processes, in development processes, in making sure that you start digging a bit deeper and look for that, that women who are the right fit for the role, you can more easily get those numbers up. And I think we have just not set the right, targets hard enough for ourselves. We have not put the actions behind it. We are doing it right now, right. So it is. I see a lot of acceleration now in your organization. Lesley is doing a brilliant job there, but we have not done it well enough over the past years. You need a few bold statements around this topic to actually make the shift, so you need need to make sure. So for example, in ingredients, we actually say now, we just need for the next role we just we need a woman for that role, so we need to recruit at least four or five people. Women at the senior management level are now on the next rules, and we are not OK. You always need to take the quality first. Of course. Look at quality first. But we are going to dig deeper.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 138 I would going not settle for less and go for the more opportunistic way when we have a good candidate. We are just moving fast. No, we are going to look much deeper and closer into the market. 9. Umm. And then what do you think that FrieslandCampina can do to really minimize? Yeah, the gender imbalance in top leadership positions? Interviewee 12 Yeah, hire more. Have a focus on it in the total organization, and make sure senior management is really aware of the topic and feels the urgency to do something, something about it. And I think that that that is where it starts. So that whole senior management is actually role modeling and this. Get the support systems in place for women to uh, to actually get there, but also stay at the in your organization. So I think those are the main ones, yeah. 10. Umm, and yeah, what advice do you have for women that really want to break that glass ceiling or maybe are a little bit more at the start of their career? Interviewee 12 Go. Just go. Do not pay a lot of attention then to the opinions around you. And go for your own ambitions and your own way of living, because you are sometimes you are a bit steered into a direction of dishes how it should be. And you, you get quite some. You can get quite some hurdles along the way, but keep your focus if you have that ambition and move and find people around you who are a bit in the same thinking or had that career already and talk about it. With each other and find the difficulties and yeah and discuss them. 11. And then what advice would you have for men that want to, yeah, support the women better? Interviewee 12 Talk to them as well. What drives them? What they find difficult about the whole system we are having or. And what troubles them? I just had a conversation today with one of our talented women. She said, hey, 20. Perhaps she will talk to her. And she said I had a personal development conversation with her and her line manager. And she said it was a couple of months ago. And today, she told me that in that session that when I was just asking for her because she just came back from maternity leave and the 1st 10 minutes, I was just asking about her family. How it was with her little one and says, she said that that opened my eyes, that it it can also be done differently than what I have used to experience over the last year and if men only would realize that just giving some attention in these big impact moments in women's life and show a bit of care and show understanding how much that can change for women in the organization. And that will be a major step. 12. Yeah, I think that was the last question that I wanted to ask you. Are there any questions or comments that you have for me? Interviewee 12 No, well, I am really looking forward to seeing the outcomes of it, and good luck with the rest of the interviews.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 139 Appendix S Transcript Interview 13 Interview #13 Interviewee 13 Hay Grade: 18 Department: Supply Chain Interview Questions 1. So when you sort of reflect upon that career journey that you have had with FrieslandCampina, what has really helped you and what has really hindered you? Interviewee 13 And what really helped me are a few people good managers I had on the way. A really good people who were not only looking at what had to be done but also at you as a person. What you can do. And this is something that I will keep in my head for the rest of my career. And I have a manager who told me my team is like a football team. There is a guardian, there are attackers, and there are defenders. And my job as a manager is to make sure you have the right people in the right space, and it is no problem that you are very bad at defending because if you are the best at attacking, then it is my problems that I should not put you in a different position but in an attacker position. And that was for me a really big high opening from how. I should be as an as a worker, but also how I want to be. If I ever become a manager this should be my rule and make sure that my people can do what they are good at and that is good for me. That was really like, OK, I do not have to be good at everything. I just have to be good at what I am good at and make sure I am not too bad at rest. But that is what I think. This manager is a person I had the most from. Uh. And what has? Uh, yeah. Hindered me. At the same time, it is very simple at the moment. The saying I had some most problems within my career was my pregnancies. And I have to specify. Actually my first pregnancy because I got discriminated against when I came back from my pregnancy leave. So that is something which I of course, at the moment I had a lot of problems with it. I was really. Yeah almost burned out, and it was really a huge impact because you also have a baby of a few months old at home, which does not work. And the world which you know. Uh is running because there is a plan there. You know how it works. Yes, that crumbled as well. So that was a very tough period. And I noticed I still, yeah, suffer from it. It is maybe a big word, but it still has an impact for me today because it killed my self-confidence and I realized I do certain things differently out the fear that I this will happen again or that is I get back to that place so as that would be the two. The two things I would mention on the positive and on the negative side, what has FrieslandCampina done or impacted on me. 2. Yeah, you already mentioned it a little bit, but my next question, yeah, have you ever experienced or maybe seen also with somebody else? Yeah, any sort of discrimination or stereotyping really relating to your gender? And could you explain that a little bit? Interviewee 13 Yeah. Yeah. So for me, it is really uh, it is really, uh, yeah, pregnancy-related I would say so. A. Yeah. Discrimination. That is one thing I can go back to it. Yeah. How do you say gender differences? Yeah, you get jokes. So when I was pregnant, I heard that I was so big that I could not pass in the door. That is sort of saying that. But for me, these are jokes. And the problem is that is also something I realize there is a fine line between jokes and between yeah, offensive, gender-related comments.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 140 And I think most of the time it is based on how you, uh, receive it, but also how it is sent by the other person. And so if one person tells it and another person tells it because you have a different relation, you will know it is a joke, or you will be like, what is this now? So that is a very difficult field. And so. But so that is yeah, I was working in a factory. Yeah, only operators and also a learning Dutch. So I think I have made a lot of sentences which were not fully correct that peoples interprets as a sexual comments, and then you have a lot of laughing, but I have never had a problem with it because it was just like I do not know what I have said so yeah it has to be OK. And concerning my, yeah, my discrimination case, I want to specify that this is something I have never officially complained about because I did not dare. And it is not. Yeah, I did not dare to do the official procedure. What I did do is I escalated it towards the HR director at the time and she did nothing. And that is also the reason I did not pursue it an official way because I was like, yeah, if she does not help me, she is a woman. She has children, she is the HR director. All these people who are doing it are below our responsibility. If she does nothing, then I am not willing to start a dispute with FrieslandCampina now because I had feelings that first. It would would-be and also it was a lot about my word against them and yeah, the system was against me. That is it. That is the feeling I had. Uh, so I I do not know if you want a lot of details about it, but that is. Marja Whatever you feel comfortable telling Interviewee 13 Yeah. So in short. And what has happened is that I was a trainee when I started for FrieslandCampina. And that means you have two years of yeah, of an assignment. So one year and one assignment the second year. An assignment. So first one, you do not choose a second one, you choose for me. I chose a second one to go to a cheese factory as a continuous improvement manager. And in March that year, you start looking into, OK, in September, I have to move again. And that becomes a fixed job. So I have to think about it. And I really want it to be assistant production manager. Yeah, perfect. Ideally , I wanted to stay in the factory. I was because it felt like my family. However, I knew it would very it would be impossible because we just had a huge plan to reduce the amount of people working there. And I knew there was not job function created. So I asked my plant manager if he could help me connect with the right people within the company to find such a job in the cheese factory, because I found it very interesting to stay in cheese. And yeah, he helped me out by saying, OK, you should talk with these two people. But would you like to do it here? And I said, of course I can, but it is not possible. I know that already. Then I met with his boss, which was at the time the factory director of make, and for after this interview, I got back to my plant manager who said you should meet the HR director as an informal discussion. And my plan is to create that function in here so that you can stay. So I was really happy. Of course. And let me think that that was in May something like this and I got pregnant at the end of May, I realized I was pregnant in the 2nd week of June. So I was in the middle of this period where I maybe had the job, but I maybe did not have a job and I really struggle with it. Do I say it? Do I not say it? And my husband was like, do not say it because they do not have to know. So you should not feel guilty about it. But I did feel guilty about it. There was something, but OK,
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 141 I did not say anything. I met with HR director of cheese at the end of June. So at that time I knew I was pregnant. I was really no doubt. And she told me at the end the of the discussions that I had a green light, and I should say that I had a green light to the plant manager and the ITR, the manager. And that is what I did. And then I got, yeah, a discussion with HR, local representative in any setting. Yeah, they needed to follow the FrieslandCampina procedure. So the fact that you are needs the vacancy needs to be published two weeks, and then I would be the preferred candidate, of course. But they had to follow the rules. Now I am somebody of the rules. So I was fully agreeing with it. And then it was told, so it was beginning of July that this procedure would start in September. Now, uh, perfect. No problem. In the meantime, I got confirmation that I would stay within FrieslandCampina now because after two years of the traineeship, if you only have positive reviews, then you automatically get a fixed contract. So it is not something I had to arrange. It is just automatic. And ad yeah, in September, when I asked about it, and at the end of July before I went to nowadays, I said that I was pregnant and I only got positive reactions from the plant manager, from the HR manager. So no problem. I will not. Did not see it coming, I mean. And in September, they said, yeah, we are now trying to recruit a team lighter. We are very busy. So it will be November, no problem. I had the job at an interim. Yeah, I was already doing it and for me it was also nice. I could see if I liked it, and I was like, yeah, if I do not like it, then I have actually three months of time to try it out. But November became to February, and I had to go with pregnancy leave from the in the year in December. So then I was like, OK, but yeah, February I am technically, I have my kid in February. So it is not like I can solicitate when I am yeah delivering, and then they said no. Yeah, we get that. Let's do it in May. Now still no problem with it because you trust people you work with. I mean, that is just not an issue. And at the end of December, I had my end of year review and it was a positive end of your review. My manager was happy, and so I went with a good heart with my pregnancy leave, I got my baby, and I came back the first day of May and well, and at first servicing went well because I my manager gave me directly much more responsibilities than what I had in September. So I was like, OK. It becomes real. I like it. And three weeks after I came back she asked me in her office and she told me, Are you sure? Are you sure you want the job? Because it is tough and it is hard to combine with your previous and your work life. And I really thought about it. And I was like, no. Yeah. I just want to do it. But there was something where like it was also strange discussion. And she asked me to discuss it with the HR manager, so I planned a meeting with the HR manager so that was one and a half week after, and I came inside that meeting with the idea. I will explain to him why I want this because anyway. I mean, there was nothing. It is. I mean, I have. I have been promised that job. So I mean, it is just an informal discussion. And as soon as I sat and I said what I wanted for the meeting, he cut me out, and he said no. This meeting is to tell you that you are not qualified for the job. And then I yeah, I was in shock, and I asked her off question because that is what I do when I am in shock. I put myself next to me, and I just look at the situation. I asked a very rational question. I do not cry. I am not emotional. I am just OK trying to get it. What's on the facts. And the conclusion was I did not have it in me to be able to do that job that. And let's say had a stomach feeling that I would not be able to wear when I asked for it. But what? What are you basing it on? The only concrete answer I got is that they did not see me with my. Yeah, in the Dutch story, but it literally meant that they thought I could not put my
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 142 fist on the table and make the decisions. The team leaders they would not follow me. And I told him that is not the way I live. I am just not somebody who shouts. I am not a man. Sorry, I do not shout. I take people with me. And yeah, after that meeting, I just scrambled in the stairs and then I realized, OK, this is really this is not OK. So it is something going on there. And that is the beginning of my problems. After that, I confronted my manager about it. Uh, my manager said. Uh. She agreed with the fact that I could not do it. And then I reacted emotionally, and then she, she said I had hormones. I was still breastfeeding, and I was tired. And so then I heard. But I think it was all good intentions I think it was really a women's supporting a woman. So in that sense, it was not the discrimination, but. I could not, in our opinion, I could not react to anything anywhere or just because. Yeah, I was so much full of hormones. That is this was to be expected. So I afterward, I am like, yeah, my feelings were not hurt because it was all about my hormones where we say was really pain there. It was really something there, but OK. And when I confronted my plant manager about it, that is where. That is why I dare to say now it was discrimination because I sit at a table with him and I told him I do not get it. I got a good recommendation in December. I have been there for one month since I have been since I have had a baby, so if I am not qualified, why did notyou tell me that in December? Because in December and I have my end of year review to prove it, you were quite enthusiast. And then you said, "I will tell you" I will tell you how I see the story. Do you agree? I say yes, please. And then he story is at I went behind his back in Amersfoort for to arrange I got to the permanent contract. I did not do that because I had a permanent contract. I think he says that because I have discussed with the HR manager at the time on his recommendation, he asked me to go to talk with her, so that part of the story I just never I can never understand. And then that is his third sentence. So he said you have been in Amersfoort behind my back to arrange a permanent contract. And then you told me you were pregnant. What do you think? I thought that is literally is worse. And then I was like, OK, I do not care what you saw because no matter what you saw, this is not related to my pregnancy, but. If I take this sentence from him, basically in his head he made a story that I arrange to become a problem for him just before I say I am pregnant, where as he proposed me to stay. And when I heard that I was like, OK, but this is actually discrimination because it puts my pregnancy. As the reason and afterwards of course I was not functioning and I was not able to lead the production leaders and I could not learn fast enough, whereas I had shown the last two years that I could learn fast enough. My God, I learned Dutch in one year, but no, I could not learn that fast enough. And so that, yeah, that is a bit my story and that is why I say it is discrimination. And in the tragic after that I ended up in a situation where management said it was that I did not function. And as soon as you end up in the case in the in the jobs is this is, uh, a Hierarchical / functioning issue. Uh, yeah. Compass is not applying. Because functional. Yeah, functioning respect. So we, I do not know. You see that English? Yeah. That is not something for Compass. And that is for me. One of the biggest flower of our policy at the moment. If you manager is slim enough to put it behind your article slash the ordering issue they are protected.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 143 So yeah, and yeah, at the time I have of course discussed it with my HR manager, which said I was not able and it was a very careful I said you have to have facts and he said I do need, I do not need facts on the HR manager I decide and then I said I will go to his boss. So the HR director because I discussed with services as a year before. So I thought this is not OK what's going on there. So I want to discuss it with her and also have her filling because a year before she did not tell me I did not have it in me. So I planned a meeting with her, and that is where the system plays played against me because when I stepped in that meeting, the first thing she said is I have called the plant manager and the HR manager to ask why you were coming. And then I was like, yeah, so you already have your you already have the story you were looking for. I will not come in between, but I was like, OK, I came here. I will fit. I will say what I have to say, and indeed what I have heard is. That is my plant manager should have never said that, and I should confront him about it. So it was only about the fact that he said something which was not correct. No, he is discriminating against me and I had to go to talk to him, to say it was not OK. She proposed to help, she said, should I should I plan a meeting with the three of us. And I was like, yeah, I am not going to have that meeting with you. You are not there for me. So. So it was all made so that my feeling, I shut my mouth. I accept it and I move on. I did not have my daughter earlier. Because I did not want to get pregnant again because of. But then you can. You can? Yeah. Even when I had a very good manager at the time. I knew I would not be discriminated. But in your head, you know, there is something if you are not there. And things can happen, and I also need to prove myself that they were wrong, so that is a very complicated. The combination and I am very happy at my daughter. When I had my daughter because my daughter is very nice and I would have a different child. Probably. Yeah. So that is life but. would have to second child earlier and I did not, and that was clearly related to what happened. 3. Do you feel that you are treated differently because you are a woman? Interviewee 13 Yeah. In that case, yes, of course. Pregnancy is women related, so it is an easy yes. But the reason I say yes, it is not. And the reason they base to give me that feedback to say I was not suited is that in her opinion, in their opinion, I did not have a big enough mouth. I could not. Yeah, we met my first obstacle. And I think that is something that man in a production facilities are looking for because that is how they do. That is how they function. And as a result they think this cannot be done differently. And especially my plant manager at the time is somebody who just tell people to set up and do what I say. And so that is what he expects from the people around them. And that is something that a woman would do less fast than a man because. Yeah, I think some man it is. Yeah. It is we do not have testosterone. So and I have definitely been treated differently in the area of my pregnancy, but. On the on the uh, if I hadn't been pregnant, they could have still used that argument. Because I think I. Yeah, I am. I am a woman. I do think differently. Indeed, I do not have a very big mouth. And if I start shouting. Yeah, I am ridiculous. So I am not going to try. 4. And do you feel that you were supported by FrieslandCampina to really be the best employee you can be, maybe through a mentor or coach or training? Interviewee 13 And yes and no. So during the traineeship, definitely yes. After the traineeship not by FrieslandCampina now, but by myself, because I had during the traineeship add some edits. So
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 144 I asked some people to keep helping me, but it is arranged by me. And in this period of my life. A definitely not by the people I would have expected from I have been helped by another HR manager from a different business group. A but, but not by the people we should have helped me. My own year actually line. There was nowhere, nobody. And I also noticed that when I was telling my stories, that people that do step back because they feel this is something which can go wrong for either FrieslandCampina, either for me and people do not take side, which is good but. You feel you, you are treated differently and then yeah. Kind of problem, no matter if it is a woman or man. And so that I think it is a good development, maybe we were not there yet as a company in 2018 when I when I yeah faced it. But yeah, it you also need. It is not only about speaking up, it is also about being listened to and that people also tell you what are your possibilities. And because for me, so people listen to me. They did not tell me, OK, I cannot help you. But these are the steps that you could take. And this step needs to this path. And this step is to this path because in my head I was like if I start to speak up procedure for example peanuts over I have to go because I will not stay and that is the step I was not ready to take but. I did not have to be true, but nobody told me it was not true. So. 5. Umm. And there was another research done in the Netherlands. This was that specifically, UM, that around 60% of all the working women in the Newlands work part-time. And do you think that has an influence that there or yeah, sort of less women in leadership positions? Interviewee 13 Yeah. And yeah, I think so. But I think it is not, yeah, I do not know if I formalize it correctly. I think it is not about woman or man. I think it is really about the company culture and that is probably also what you what you see in this in this. Yeah, studies but. In my head, it does not have to matter that I am a woman and work part-time, or that I am a man or a part-time. It is about how are we welcoming people working part-time in our in our company and what are we thinking about it? And if I look at the amount of hours I work, basically I get less paid through the same amount of work as another because I do not have less job. Activities on another, but I do get less paid. And so that is also something which is. Yeah, I do believe I would be able to do the same job as somebody working full time as long as it is not expected of me to work 50 hours. But the 40 hours I would do. 6. Umm. And yeah, in your opinion, why do you think that there are fewer women in leadership positions in FrieslandCampina? Interviewee 13 OK, it is really my opinion. I think there is 2 phenomenon, something which I get absolutely irritated at FrieslandCampina at the moment is that I have the feeling there is a certain group of people which always remain and which just move from position to another and some of these people I have also had in my story of my pregnancy leave and I have the feeling there is some kind of a yeah fringe group of political. If you are not in. And for what I find very sad is that at least three of these people I find very bad. I do not think they do their job properly, but I have the feelings. They are untouchable. I think that is one of the problems of FrieslandCampina. Uh, the whole rating system of performance is quite obscure. If you look at it, we make the how do you say that? The objective we make same in March but we are rated
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 145 by our manager in October and we do not hear before January. Yeah, if you do not agree, what are you going to do? And so and. But this is the basis for HR to then look at who would need to a next carrier change. And actually I would really like to have a meeting with my HR manager every year to talk about me to talk about what I want. You do not have that. Yeah, I think definitely that this is a problem for me in FrieslandCampina. 7. And what do you think that FrieslandCampina can do to? Yeah. Minimize that gender imbalance? Interviewee 13 Yeah, I, uh. Like I said, having a more, uh, open discussion about the rating system about why you are not seeing us competent enough or why do not you get an Excel or what does. What do they think for you? Uh, now you are not ready yet. But if you do this and this and you, you are ready next year and this whole discussion you should do with your manager. But I have only managers at the moment who look at my tasks which do not look at the rest. So I think there is a really needs to be a step down in the way managers are managing but also in the culture of FrieslandCampina, which is definitely not supported by the current yeah performance reward system. 8. And what advice do you have for women that, yeah, maybe a little bit more at the start of their careers and what advice would you have for them? Interviewee 13 Uh, yeah, the learning I have. And I would tell that to anybody is choose your manager. Well, then it is a bit sad I think, but I think it is also the reality of FrieslandCampina choose your manager before you choose your job or choose your manager and your job. But that manager, which improves on Campina, can be extremely destroying, so that would really be the advice I would give. 9. And then what advice would you have for men that want to support women better? Interviewee 13 Well, if I look at my story and the only people I had, the feeling I could be supported by where women. So I think the advice I could have for a man is a yeah, be aware that it does not always happen far away, but it is also can happen to the person next to you. Uh, listen and do not judge. And that is also, of course, for women because there are also women who thought I was a liar and that sort of thing. Yeah, but, but it is also it. I mean, I do not expect that men go lie on the floor and say we are very bad. We are terrible woman. Should be. Yeah. I think it is just being aware of each other and make sure that we move forward together. And but I do not, I do not say. Uh, yeah, there should be positions on the open to women because that has also been a problem for me. I am like, yeah. Then maybe I am not the best qualified for me. It is really about being qualified. So they do not men do not have to be afraid of us to just need to. Yeah. To realize that for me it is really realized this does not only happen far away and it is also exists on the next department store and also within for example I have a primary living example of it.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 146 10. I think that was my last question for you. Do you have any questions or comments or examples for me? Interviewee 13 No, I am curious. I am. I am curious. Yeah. What your conclusions will be. Marja Yes I will share a copy when I handed in my thesis! Interviewee 13 And yeah, that is it. I found it an interesting discussion. So thank you for your time.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 147 Appendix T Transcript Interview 1 4 Interview #14 Interviewee 14 Hay Grade: 20 Department: Supply Chain Interview Questions 1. Uh, when you sort of reflect upon your career journey, what has really helped you and what has really hindered you? Interviewee 14 And yeah, looking back, I think I, in all those years, I made quite some steps. So for me, I think I had quite a good wind with me, so to say, what really helped me in that, I think, is it is just a couple of people who were really on top of. Your development. So there was. I knew some people who are in the business group who were sort of a bit of your sponsor, a bit of your. And uh, where you could easily talk to. So I think that it really helped me in hoping on jobs or to say So what I was planning to planner. I actually moved into a new rule where the previous manager was located. So he brought me to his team and then again back to the next role I was again talking to the Director of the previous role, and I think what helped me there was that there was one person. But in the business group was really on top of talented people and he sort of promoted me verbally to others, and that really helped me everything. And also knowing that I have four very small children, and in that period, I think I got quite some support as well on going on leave and there was no. And there were really open on that on and saying it is no issue and they are really helping on that. I have to say, though, in my current role is a bit tougher because I am now, of course higher in the company as well, and now I am getting a bit more backwind. So headwind, I have to say so now I do experience a bit more trouble with combining it. And yeah, in my current role so. I am imitating pretty Peter really helped me in my career goals. Spiritual. I cannot say anything negative about it, but currently my role, I do experience some headwind in there. Yeah. 2. And yeah, during your career, have you ever experienced or maybe seen? Yeah, yeah, at somebody else, any sort of discrimination or stereotyping? Yeah, relating to their gender? Interviewee 14 Well, I think in general, in this branch, it is quite immense world. So terminology on being tough being you can stand your man those are words that are often used. And currently, my current role. I definitely do experience that the that I am fully in a man's world. There is a lot of pressure on the performance and very little on the feeling side and as a feeler, I am quite a feeling person, so for me it is quite important that I also get some attention from the person and that is really what I am currently facing. It is that is lacking in the in this, this region of the company at this moment. But the real discrimination, I have to say. Yeah, well, walking in factories. Yeah, of course. They are jokes about skirts and those kind of things. But which is at this moment and now knowing what all the, me too and all the topics not done. But it is still within the boundaries. So I have to, I have to say.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 148 3. And do you feel that you were treated any different because you are a woman? Interviewee 14 I do experience that I have got this role because the that they want to have a balanced team so that they really liked. I think having a woman in this position, but in this sense it, is positively of course. I do not know, Rick. They feel that I am treated differently, although I think I do have different needs. Because of my personality, perhaps because I am a woman and I just came out of maternity leave, and I need some attention on that point, and that is not given. And that is more so and we have to feel treated differently. No, I do not think. No, no, I cannot fully support that. The body. Yes, no. 4. And do you feel that your supported by FrieslandCampina to be the best employee you can be, maybe through training or coaching or mentoring? Interviewee 14 Yes, yes, yes. So yeah, they fully support all the way to grow. Currently I am also offered a coach to do everything to help me on that yeah. 5. If you look back on that time where you had your maternity leaves, yeah, what was really good or was anything missing, maybe support before, during or after you leave? Interviewee 14 And I think you said more understanding of the managers. What impact can be after coming back so? And they do say that they fully support having a slow start, but knowing that your mental, your brains are not working as well. Your sleep is a lot less just that they understand what the impact is for women is I think that is something we can do better. So that they at least are more aware of the impact. And what I think is also not fully supported well. And when you go on maternity leave, the department itself does not get any bike. Yet. As I understood previously to fill up your vacancy so often now when people hire women often, while HRM, 30 and they say OK yeah, risk of getting babies and then they do not have the budget to fulfill the vacancy. The foundation from the face. It is. What is it if they I think there is it is going to central place. And not being purchased towards the team. So I think that. Financially, I think should never be a showstopper, but it is can be obscenely and managers are aware either that the women are having bigger gaps in the period in the smaller teams. I think they do consider it what they hire people. And I think there a week as we could, we can we can separate in a bit better. Well, have at least a financial support fully there. Umm and yeah, be more flexible than would also interim hiring or whatever is needed to fill up the team. 6. And uh, did you actually have a replacement for it when you went on your maternity leaves? Interviewee 14 Yes, yes. So the first time not, but the other two times, yes. Marja No. I actually heard from previous interview that that was actually not always the case because I think it is something with FTE counts in December that they do not want that to be higher.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 149 Interviewee- 14 Yeah, but that is exactly. I think at a point where we could support better because it is an FTE count. And I think that there is. Yeah, then then managers are reluctant to take on the women that are around the age of 30 and that I think is still lagging also. But I do not think it is fully corrected when you are on leave. Mostly the manager will say that you will never be able to outperform the year and that is also something and looking at your performance measures. I have been given the outstanding in all the years that I was not on maternity leave, but in the years that I was on maternity leave, I never got outstanding. Yeah. And they always had the argument. ‘You were not there a full year .’But I think they should look at the period that you were working compared to your peers and of course, men are them working in full years. They have bigger deliveries, but you really should look at the period that you are present and the impact you make there because otherwise you will always have women that are in the year they do not live, they always have they. Let the gap, yeah. 7. And do you think that having children has an influence on your career journey? Interviewee 14 Yes. Well, at this moment, I do think it has an influence on my career because at this point of time, I am really having quite a big responsibility. And I have. I am not allowed anymore to take my Friday off. So before I was taking care of the children on Friday, as is my husband, he is a he is also taking one day off to take care of the children. And at this moment it is not possible anymore which I do understand. But I find it hard to combine everything. And therefore I, I would say that having children is currently stopping me from taking really the full sprint on going on yeah. 8. Yeah. And I I have done quite some research on the on the whole topic of gender diversity. And there were a lot of researchers that really questioned, yeah, women's lack of confidence and. Yeah, that has an influence on their career advancement. And I was just wondering what you think about that? Interviewee 14 I think that women are more humble on things and that is what. Yeah. You, you, you talk to me in the current, but at this moment in time, I am quite in a fight with having this role and my position and how I feel in this role and I have not set it differently. There is a very hard push on me on performing because the business is booming, and my personality currently is reflecting that all of my myself as a person so I. I am at this moment, I am getting more uncertain. Well, I have never been that much that before. And also, I think lack of sleep knowing that you cannot do everything and I am quite honest and humble about it. I think. And then that is something I think is different for some men that that might not. Put it on the table or make it emotional because I think I just have. Yeah. Have a different approach to that. I am a feeler. I have to feel well to do my job well. And that is clearly what I am not fully feeling. So I am. Yeah. So therefore there is a. A thing that women are a bit more humble in that sense, yeah, yeah. 9. And there was another research done in, yeah, specifically the Netherlands, and it is found that, yeah, 60% of the working women in the Netherlands work part- time. And do you think that that has an influence? Yeah. The fact that there are less females in leadership positions?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 150 Interviewee 14 And yeah, I mean, I do think that that a lot of women are standard working part-time. And in my environment, a lot of men are also working part-time. So that is the luck. But I do know cases where I am looking at also the what you pay for daycare that they make a decision both on the men or the women to decide on whom to take care of a child, the children and then also looking at the of course the salary. And I think in my case, I am lucky that I earn more money than my husband. But then still it is more choice for us because we do have sufficient money to make the choice ourselves to work part-time, yes or no. Your question was. Marja If it has an influence on, yeah, that there are less females in leadership positions. Interviewee 14 Yeah, I am now forced and forced the wrong word. I think I am. I am in my current position. They say it is not possible anymore to work part time, so I chose to take off the Friday afternoon anyway, so I said I am I will take. I will go to the school of my oldest. Take her from school on the Friday afternoon. I am still off. But that is sort of the Max I could get. Yeah. And I think a lot of women are. Yeah, they want to spend more time with their children in this current. Society. Yeah, but I think it should also count for men. I mean, yeah. It is a choice for the family and I think in, in our case and FrieslandCampina is a good paying company, but I think in in families where their isless money, they do not have the choice because then often that the person who earns less is working part time. And that is definitely impacting the career. 10. And in your opinion, why do you think there are fewer females in leadership positions at FrieslandCampina? Interviewee 14 Of course we are big chunk in our environment of course supply chain. So I think in that sense that there is also related to reduced interests of women. But it is also in the end there also within the ingredients business. The leaders are white men with blue blouses and that environment currently, what I experienced is that they are quite business-driven. They hire people they like. And I think in that sense it is a. And you are going to be at the moment, I think not the right culture that we said to really they really trying to do the best thing but they can do more different also not only women but also diversity. And in general, I think it is very poor in the top of her business group. 11. And what do you think that FrieslandCampina can do to. Yeah. Minimize that gender imbalance in top positions? Interviewee 14 AM. Yeah. So really different hiring is so different. And really have a. Umm, yeah. Really strong approach to having diversity at the top. Hire more internationals, more colored people. And I think starting from there than those people hire different people again. And because we did, they definitely think it helps us in getting a different culture in there. 12. And do you think that FrieslandCampina at this moment makes yeah, good enough of an effort to promote gender diversity?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 151 Interviewee 14 I think it is very much done by HR so. And HR perspective on communication tools having events planned. But it is I think culture is being changed by the leaders themselves. So it is if I feel that it is more push for HR and not really something the business really wants. So I do not if I talk to the managers of our business group, they are not convinced. I think that they should change. So I think if we want to change, they have to really want it and start from there. 13. And yeah, what advice would you have for women that want to, yeah, break that glass ceiling in their career? Interviewee 14 And yeah, I think that that what really helped me at the moment is that just having pillars or having conversations with women and also asking time for yourself, it just so asking the attention you need. Yeah, because I think in general, women are a bit more. They need a bit more attention on the personal side. And I think what I actually experience is the leave it in my business group are not paying attention. That is so I am seeking it somewhere else, and that is OK. Ring the bell if you are not feeling OK. Now think that environment is there so it is OK to say something that is this that you feel is not OK. I really feel supported at the moment that, at least from HR that they are doing the right things there. So I think, yeah, seeking someone who can help you with that. 14. And then what advice would you have for men that want to yet support the women better? Interviewee 14 Really. Ask what they need because they sometimes feel that they are paying attention or that they give what women need. But coming back from the maternity leave and having one minute talk about it is not sufficient. No. So really understanding what is going on and really what it means. And I think that would help them. 15. Yeah, I think that were my critical questions to you. Are there any questions or comments or maybe examples of anything that you would like to raise me? Interviewee 14 yeah, no, I am curious. Will you share with me the outcome of your study? Marja Yeah, yeah. I have to hand in my thesis in the beginning of June. Umm, and I plan to, yeah, send a copy to everyone that participated. Interviewee 14 Yeah, great. That would be good. Yeah. Yeah. I think it is a good topic or we more awareness on the varsity in general, I think is very good too. Yeah.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 152 Appendix U Transcript Interview 15 Interview #15 Interviewee 15 Hay Grade: 18 Department: HR Interview Questions 1. So if you reflect a little bit on the time that you have been in the company, yeah, what has really helped you and what has really hindered you? Interviewee 15 Good question. Yeah, I think what it really helped me in sort of progressive set. FrieslandCampina, I think, gives a lot of opportunities to also do projects that lay a bit. Maybe outside of your scope or outside of your comfort zone, or even role description, so that has really helped me too. Engage in projects, even small things, yeah, to build my skills and build your network. So that really helped me. And indeed, my recent uh pregnancy, we talk about progressing and maybe even making promotion. I see that that is. Yeah, a bit more limited or off the table once you become pregnant, and that is a little bit in the way. We, yeah, set our objectives on a yearly basis and reflect on that on a yearly basis where you kind of miss. Uh, I sort of missed the last quarter of 2021, and you do see that reflected bit in your and your review, and yeah, you can. You cannot really outperform in such a year, I feel. And then at the same time. Starting in 2022 on maternity leave and coming back. Within a couple of months, yeah. You sort of start also with the sort of. And there is good of a delay, so I have already felt that now, like, how can I just? Uh, you are also coming back from leave, so you have to adjust a bit to the working rhythm again, and you get used to that again. And how could you then outperform this year? So it almost feels like this year isn't at the time to get a promotion as well. So there, in that sense, I feel that you are sort of, yeah, two years. And if pregnancy falls in between, it is hindering you in those two years. 2. And have you experienced or may be seen. Yeah. At somebody else. Any sort of discrimination or stereotyping relating to their gender? Interviewee 15 I do not think so. I think it is a very. Uh, the very open and welcoming environment, actually. So I have not worked on a corporate level. I have not experienced that or seen that. Yeah, I feel it in the teams that I work in. We are very open to different backgrounds. Cultures. Yeah, we experience that we make the most of that so. 3. And yeah, maybe in a sense, you already talked a little bit about it, but do you feel that you were treated differently because, yeah, you are a woman? Interviewee 15 Yeah, in relation to my pregnancy, I feel that that is a bit difficult topic. So I do not feel that because I am a, I am a woman. I feel mistreated or anything. No, I am still breastfeeding, for example, that you have to explain that sometimes and that it is. Yeah, you really have to stay strong and sort of. Yeah. How do you say that? Set boundaries for yourself, but also for how you want to work, organize that, and make that happen on a daily basis. That feels a bit, not from my manager. She is really, I think, really open to that. And she is also a young mother. So maybe something you can expect of her. But it feels, yeah, like I have to explain that a bit
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 153 to my team and organize that. So yeah. Then again, I think young mothers. Will breastfeed, maybe for a couple of months while working, and you have a bit of time for that. That is also, yeah. Illegally allowed thing, but still, you cannot work the same amount of hours that someone else can. So they are already starting with the delay. Yeah. 4. Yeah, yeah. And do you feel supported by physician Campina to really be the best employee you can be, maybe through a mentor or coach? Interviewee 15 I do not feel that that is. That is offered very proactively. Uh, I feel that you have to. Really. Yeah, make things happen yourself. So I think that that has been told this FrieslandCampinas very much into nourishing growth and development. But still, a lot is really UM, based on your own, yeah, ambitions and your own. And we've organized things and maybe also your, your way of connecting with people who have that influence to do that for you so. And then coming a bit back to you, your maternity leave. 5. If you sort of look back on your maternity leave, yeah, what was really good about maybe support, and what do you think was really missing maybe before, during, or after? Interviewee 15 I think uh before my leave, I felt. That I really had a good sort of handover. Period so. Uh, and I had a sort of, yeah, sort of transfer period where I did not get too many new projects in the last month or so. When you before you leave. So that was really good. I was quite surprised that no one was going to take over my role while I was gone, so that was something that maybe also has something to consider. I think it was a company decision not to replace pregnancies for the last year, but that is, yeah. Really sort of disturbing the team, so I felt that was really. Yeah, not helping my team to give them sort of my task as well. So that was a bit before my leave during my leave. Apart from your own team of your own manager, it may be really dependable depending on how much effort they put in. Apart from that, it was awfully quiet. I would say so there wasn't anything organized from a company perspective to sort of celebrating that that yeah, very special moment in your life where you get your child or if your child. So that was a bit of a surprise to me, actually. And would have say said that that would be for an yeah, sort of employee experience. Point of view, it would be, yeah, it is a missed opportunity, really. And then coming back from. From leave again there. Yeah. You would have maybe expected something. Not, and not just from your team, but from the company to welcome you back. It is really an onboarding period, actually. UM, and it wasn't very well organized with the breastfeeding rooms. It still isn't. They are mostly smelly or occupied or double bookings, and that is really hindering. Yeah. Your flow of work because you try to work on a day and plan those times away for breastfeeding. And if then the room is occupied yet you are running. You are late for meetings. And that is really disturbing. You are sort of flow. And also your mindsets whilst working at home, working at the office. And where is that? Yeah, this is sort of. Motivated, maybe even to work a bit more from home because you do not have that in control, and that is something I think is very important to feel in control about this. This aspect of, yeah, being a young mother. Marja Yeah. And you mentioned that you sort of maybe missed some sort of communication from the company itself, but what would you have liked to receive?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 154 Interviewee 15 I think the uh, the acknowledgment that something has happened? That is of course very important to you. So I am not saying very materialistic, you know, kind of presents, but I would say that something small with a nice message would have been nice to receive, recognizing that that that something has changed and it is an important moment in life and that for example, the company. I would love to see you back when you are again. Because it you may feel a bit insecure about or I felt at least about coming back to work because you have to use your brain in a different way again, and it would have been nice to sort of tap into that moment from a company perspective, just maybe a small gesture with something to acknowledge that. 6. And yeah, I am just. I am curious. But in your opinion, why do you think that there are fewer females in leadership positions? Interviewee 15 Because we are a bit old fashioned, maybe in performance management. If you talk about promotions, uh. I feel that you are being looked at like, yeah, we are there. You know, part of the year. And so we have to maybe even answer to that in a way like how can we still promote people who are then maybe missing a couple of months in the row. Ohm. That is really around. Yeah. Young motherhood, I think. Yeah, I think what's really helping is this new work-life balance. And I think not only for females but though, but also for men to really accommodate a bit more the hybrid way of working and taking care of home well whilst being at work. So I think that is really helping but not gender-specific. Yeah, I think because I do not feel that we have this very. Male-oriented uh. The company, I feel that we have a couple of. Leaders who are female, or at least in my Geraldine, of course, female leaders, and I think she is very open and vulnerable, and that really helps to sort of set that example. So I feel inspired by that in a way. Umm, so that could be something maybe too. Give a bit more of a platform to the women that we have in leadership to not only show their strengths and how they came the way they are but also show what they've yeah experienced and maybe also position them as women and as mothers or partners or with old areas I think that really helps to express that. 7. Umm. And do you think that FrieslandCampina at this moment makes? Yeah, good enough of an effort to promote that gender diversity? Interviewee 15 To me, it is not so visible. To me, it really depends. Uh, person by person. So one person really expresses that, and the other does not. So maybe we can give a bit more platform to that. But then again, not in the. Uh, maybe the male leadership kind of way that you would expect, so more the strength kind of way, but maybe more on the sensitive part and show that leaders. It can also be female and can also express. There are. Yeah, maybe, maybe more female. 8. And then if you would be, yeah, the new CEO or maybe CPO of FrieslandCampina, would you do anything differently? Interviewee 15 Yeah, it will do something with that. With that reward structure, maybe. I would give more of a platform. Yeah. For full neuro ability, more the people side of things. Really showing leaders
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 155 as well as humans, also men additive. Then express really whom they are with the first inclusion also showing your nature, something that is a big step, so maybe. There is some room to explore there to show that we are actually. Uh, I do not know so much, female or male, but we have a certain nature, and we can express that. 9. Yeah, I think I have asked my most important questions to you. Are there any questions or comments you have for me? Interviewee 15 No, maybe that is a very practical thing for the office environment. And I am not sure if that is something you are going to answer, but maybe you could address that in a way to, uh, facilities, or because I heard, you know, you have heard that from a couple of people and but apart from that, no, I think. Marja Yeah, I will
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 156 Appendix V Transcript Interview 16 Interview #16 Interviewee 16 Hay Grade: 21 Department: Finance Interview Questions 1. If you sort of reflect upon that career journey that you had, what has really helped you and what is really hindered you? Interviewee 16 We what, my positive outtake is that I think with FrieslandCampina, you can basically build your own career. Also, if you really want to move on, if you really want to improve things, there is a lot of room to do that, and I think the layers, well, are, are reasonably transparent, and we do not have that many layers. So that means that there is enough visibility to senior management. If you start with FrieslandCampina and you are doing well. I think people are really supporting you too well to show you the best you can. And so yeah, I found it very positive, to be honest. Marja Next, next, and is there anything that you can remember that maybe hindered you a little bit? Interviewee 16 I am not really, to be honest. I can imagine that if you have a manager that is not supporting your career that that can hinder you. But in my case, it was not the case. Yeah. I mean, if you can have a big impact, if they really support you in your growth and in your development priorities and if they support you in also making you ready for the next step. And I think it is basically up to you with FrieslandCampina if you were able to do it, yes or no. 2. And then during your career, have you ever experienced or may be seen? Uh, yeah, somebody else. Any sort of discrimination or stereotyping relating to their gender? Interviewee 16 Now, to be honest, I have not seen that. Yeah. Yeah. And I also think when I look at my own team. There is definitely no discrimination between men and women, so I think women get equal chances within reason Campina, as far as I see it. And as far as I have experienced it. Also, when I look into cultural differences, I think we are quite open. We sometimes we have the tendency to switch too much to Dutch culture and the Dutch language, so it can be difficult for foreigners to feel welcome because so many things are still in touch. So I think that can hinder a little bit. 3. Yeah. And do you feel that you were supported by FrieslandCampina to really be the best employee you can be, maybe through training or mentoring or coaching? Interviewee 16 Yes, I think in the end it is for myself. I really believe that you, you, you steer your own career, right? So you need to have support, and you need to have the flexibility and also the
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 157 opportunities to do so. But in the end, it is up to yourself, and I think if you really want to take the next step, we offer training, we offer courses. I think there is a lot to learn on the job. Basically has, so there is enough room to step in and project. If you want to learn something else outside your own. Own environment, your own discipline. That is still possible for a reason Campina and I think. Maybe we could stimulate that even more, but I have never. Heard now that is not possible. Or that is we do not do that. 4. And yeah, I am just looking because I am a little bit focusing on maternity leaves. So maybe if you, if you look back on the period that you went in, your maternity leave and you came back, yeah, what was really good, maybe the support or was there anything missing? Interviewee 16 Not well. I think it is more up to your own behavior how you want to deal with that. So. And when I was pregnant, I was basically the third woman in our management team. I was at that time, the finance work. Of course, in the Netherlands and it was the 3rd and management team of CDL that was pregnant. In in, in, in in six months. So basically, I told bas he was the Managing director. Yeah, you know that I have had all these treatments, and in the end it was successful. So everyone was very happy for me. But I also told Boss I also understand that is for you a very unpleasant situation to handle because I am the third one who's going on maternity leave and in a team of six, that is of course, not very ideal. So I told bas it is good to have an. Uh, while successor for my position, and that is when I am coming back. I will find a new role within FrieslandCampina. And if there is no new role, I will find another role outside the present company now. So for me it was. It really felt like, OK, I am handing over to a permanent successor. And I think that was better for the team and also for myself because I was already 2 1/2 years in that role, and basically the schedule was that I would. Move on to the next row in in six or six months to one year. So if I would come back, then it would only be for six months and that was too short, I would say. So I decided I would go on maternity leave without any job and to be honest, that failed, really. OK, if it was a real big holiday because you do not have the feeling that you leave someone behind and you still need to be there because you will not. In, but you will come back if you have a permanent successor. It will proper hand over, and well then basically, it is there. And you do not have the responsibility anymore. So of course, you can. You can have a call to explain a few things or to have discuss a few people's things, but in the end, your successor is there, and he takes it over. So for me that was a perfect situation. And people are asking me, hey. You do not have a job. Does that feel uncomfortable? And I told them, well, basically, that is not the case. So it feels for me very comfortable because I have I. Well, I was convinced that there would be a nice job, benefits, and Campina. And if there was no nice job, there will be a project for a couple of months and then hopefully, there will be another nice job. And if that is not the case, there will be a nice outside frequent copy. It will be a nice job. Yeah. Yeah. For me it was very relaxed, so I can really recommend that. How would you say and it is based on your own. Yeah. Well, yeah, based on your own attitudes and the way you think, I think also. 5. And do you think that having children has a yeah, an influence on your career journey? Interviewee 16
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 158 No, but it depends on how you act as a parent. So that means that if you have children, you need to be aware that you also need to arrange things if your kids are sick. Has, so I have basically a four or five part-time nannies available, and I am, and when there is no daycare or the kids are sick that I can ask them to join my family and to take care of my kids. And sometimes if you do have not a very busy agenda, it is also nice that you could not do it yourself. But I think you need to make sure that there is enough support around you to run your family as well because, of course it is not a company your family, but you need to make sure that. It is going smoothly in both ways. 6. And I have done quite some research on the whole topic of gender diversity, and there were a lot of researchers that really questioned, yeah, women's lack of confidence and the influence that has on their career journey, maybe in a negative way. And I was just wondering what you think about that. Interviewee 16 Ohh yeah. Well, in the end I think, but that is I know it is more of a women's thing than a man's thing than the thinking about. Ohh I am good enough. Yes or no yet. I think It is also your own attitude, I think. Men are a little bit more bullish in terms of, hey, I am very good and this is what I can, and women are little bit moderate and say, yeah if you the English word for modest. Do you know what I mean? So we have an audit more like this hidden and they. But in the end, I think that if you do your job in the right way, enough people will also tell you, hey, you are ready for your next role. And I think it is also good to discuss that with your manager if you have any feeling. OK, I can do that position. You can also open that is open up that question and ask your manager. Hey do you think I am ready for it? And because I think it is a very nice position. And so I would like to learn what else I should develop in order to be ready for that. And then have you do not have to do it in a bold way, because if you do not feel comfortable to do that, I can imagine that it is hard and then you shouldn't do it because in the end you should stay close to yourself. But you could still ask that question to the people around you in a very modest and described way. And that is still open. Enough doors, I would say. 7. And there was another research done, specifically in the Netherlands mentioned that 60% of all the working women in the Netherlands work part-time. And do you think that that has any influence on? Yeah. The fact that there are just fewer females in leadership positions? Interviewee 16 Yeah. Yes, but because I think it is good to work part time, but you need to be flexible, and that is exactly the problem in the Netherlands. I think you, hey, if I am also a flexible worker, but in the end I work 40 hours a week at minimum, but I am doing a lot in, in the evening and sometimes the only weekend with the little one is sleeping. And to all this, one is playing tennis or going for horse riding. So then I still have two or three hours during the weekend that I can also do a few things. So it depends a little bit on your own flexibility. Yeah. So having a fixed day off is very difficult and very senior positions, but managing your job 40 hours a week is still possible. So it does not need to be 50 or 60 hours, but you need to be flexible and you need to have enough good people around you. That, but I think if you were in a very senior role, then it is difficult to have a fixed day off because if the environment around you is not doing that, you always have the feeling. Ohh I miss something during that day. So it might be better to say, OK, this morning I am off, and this afternoon I am there that works better than the full day of, I would say.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 159 Also, I have when you have some, uh, deadlines and you really need to deliver a few things and then having a fixed day off is difficult and it is not helping you in, in, in your daily life as well because if you do not have the flexibility hey a serious job requires a certain amount of time that you really spent on that job and you can do it in a very effective way. So make sure that you have good people around you but. Well, it, it is most of the time, it is it. It takes 40 hours. That is what it is. Because you need to read stuff, you have a few. Discussions with your colleagues, you have meetings, you have EB calls. And sometimes it goes out on Tuesday. Sometimes they, on Wednesday in my situation, I have to make sure that we finalize a few things on Thursday and Friday for the EBA or supervisor report. Yeah. Then it is difficult. If I am not there. Yeah, but if and but I also have to say when I need to go to the hospital, I tell my manager, hey, I am not there and that is always a big understanding and room for that. So it is flexible to organize, but you need to have flexibility in both ways. Some women they really think or some models they really think I need to spend one day with my daughter or with my son, because otherwise, he has been. He has five or six and I have missed that whole journey. But you could also ask Nanny to go to the play garden in the mornings to have lunch together, and then he is going to bed, and then you stop working around 4:00 when he is when he is awake, and then you still have two or three hours together. And if you do that 2 two days, two days a week, then I think you have the same level of quality time. It is much more relaxed for yourself, and you can have, well, you can also spend a lot of time on your job and build your career. I think that is possible, but I think we need a little bit more flexibility left and right. 8. And in your opinion, why do you think there are fewer females in leadership positions? Interviewee 16 Ohh that is a good question. As far as I understand, that is not a cultural thing of reason Campina it is possible. So it is, I think, more up to women themselves. Hey, it is you. What I always tell the people in my team if you really want to drive your career, there are a lot of things, a lot of things to organize, and a lot of things are possible. But it also means that you take a certain responsibility. So we have a responsibility at home and you we have a responsibility at yours. Yeah, it would not be some coping at your job. And you also need to take that responsibility and you it should make you happy. And I sometimes I have the question if women have one responsibility at home, they sometimes find, OK, this is enough and having two responsibilities means that you have to organize things in a proper way that you have need to have support and then is at home and make sure that Apple brings your groceries and someone else cleaning your house. So. That because you also need to sleep well. Otherwise, it is. It is also not helping. So that means that you need to delegate a few things and that you also need to think, OK, I asked the Nanny to prepare a meal and it is maybe not a meal that I prepared, but hey, it is nice food and that is it. And it is arranged for my and. And I could do a meeting in the meantime. So it is. I think it is about winning to take the responsibilities at home and also at you are at FrieslandCampina if you really want to do it, you can do it. But sometimes after a question. I am not sure if everyone wants to do it. And I am not saying that it is a bad thing, but. And I think in the
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 160 Netherlands is still a little bit culture. That is ladies do more at home and men do more at work. But yeah, I think we are all. And well, free enough. And we have all grown up to do that in, in our own way. And I sometimes you have an example, if you model worked full days and then it is sometimes easier to do it as a daughter as well. 9. Yeah, yeah. And what do you think that person could Pina can do to help minimize that gender imbalance? Interviewee 16 Umm, well coaching if you think you are one of your team members is a very good lady. Really caught her in advising her what she can do to build her career to keep her career. Also, when she is a mother. For, when I was pregnant, I found it very easy. It was no and I had a very easy pregnancy. But if you have troubles in your pregnancy, there is enough room to say, OK, I need to step back a few days a week, or I think we fully accept that. If I see all the things I have done before I got pregnant, there was so much room for me to do that. That is, I think everything is possible. Also, during your pregnancy. 10. Yeah, yeah. And do you think that FrieslandCampina at this moment makes good enough of an effort to promote that gender equality? Interviewee 16 I think we could promote more about how you can build and develop your career while being a mother. I think we could do that better and I think we could also improve in, in, in, in cultural differences to make that smaller and to make sure that more people feel at home within a piece of Campina. And it is not only that Dutch Friesland Campina, but more an international environment. 11. Yeah, yeah. And what advice do you have for women that, yeah, want to sort of break that glass ceiling in their career? Interviewee 16 Find a few good coaches, that can help you and can give you some advice because it is. It is in yet not difficult, but sometimes you really need to. I realized that to you have, if you really want it, you can do it and there is enough room. So you are in the driver's seat, but you also need to organize a few things now. If you really want to do that, that is then for me, there is no issue, but. And sometimes, I have to feel that some women, they are always struggling. Yeah. But I have to be at home. And I think especially now with the new way of working we can, we can find easy ways to be at home and to spend time with your kids and also to have a proper career and to support your creative development. I think you can. You can. You can do both, but it is it is really up to you if you want to do it. 12. And what advice do you have for men that want to, yeah, support the women better? Interviewee 16 Give them a little bit more flexibility, so if you want to do a more during the evenings, that is fine. Suppose they want to close off at 4:15, or 4:30 to take the kids from the daycare and to spend 2 hours with them before they go to bed. That is fine. And in the end, you should focus on the results and the way people act in teams and how they develop rather than the fixed hours in your office, because that is, that is, I would say, very old fashioned.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 161 Yeah. So if you focus on, on well on, on, on growth and results and make sure that your people feel healthy and energized in your team. And keep the discussion open and also give them some. Room to find coaches internally, I think, and also externally because that is really your keeping your energy level high and if you keep the energy level high and think about opportunities and possibilities rather than restrictions and difficulties, I think you can do much more. 13. Yeah, I think that was my last question for you that I wanted to ask. Are there any questions or comments that you that you have for me? Interviewee 16 Umm, yes. What you sometimes see is that people. Especially when women have difficulties in becoming pregnant, that they really think, oh, I have to be at my work every day, so I would really advise them also to speak up to their management, to share that, because then there is much more room than you think there is. So Umm, yeah, be open and be transparent and also, when you have some issues and difficulties, then I think most of the managers are really helpful and supportive to well to give you some room and flexibility. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know some stories that women got miscarriages and that they went to work immediately after. Yeah, that is very sad, right. And that is not necessary.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 162 Appendix W Transcript Interview 17 Interview #17 Interviewee 17 Hay Grade: 18 Department: Commercial Interview Questions 1. When you reflect on the career journey that you have had within FrieslandCampina, what is really helped you and what has really hindered you? Interviewee 17 I think what has really helped me is. I think there are very broad opportunities within FrieslandCampina at the fact that I have been able to work in all these different opco's. Different positions clearly show that if you are interested in different parts of the business. Uh, are you willing to talk to people outside of your own circle and to also express your own interest. I think there are possibilities. That has really helped me. As for my personality, I am not afraid to go out there and express what I what I want to do or what I like to do. What I dislike so. So I think that that that always helps. Of course, if you have a clear view the on what you want as a next step or maybe even mid-term. The biggest challenge for me was, I think, when I was working as a redo, the business was being sold. And I had really joint FrieslandCampina as a company whereas my where we with my first position at the video. But then, but then it was sold. So I was like, OK, but I really applied for FrieslandCampina as a company and I was not ready yet to leave FrieslandCampina because I wanted to also make the step into the dairy business. So that was a bit hindering because obviously Riddle was sold. The employees were also sold. We are working all of a sudden foreign investment company. So I actually decided to quit my job there because I did not want to continue working through retail in that new setting. So and actually applied again for efficient Campina. As a yeah, a new an external employee so, but then because obviously I still knew a lot of people from FrieslandCampina, it was quite easy to get a job, and they were willing to take me. And so that was that was really nice. I think another thing that hindered me was. Which regards to the topic then is. When I was. Doing the interviews to get back in FrieslandCampina again, I was highly pregnant. And I had a well the manager who was interviewing me for the new position. She was not aware when I first got into the interview, but when I stepped in it was obviously pretty obvious because I had my pregnant belly. But she was very supportive, and she was just saying like ohh, I did not know and congratulations and super nice. I am a very practical person, and she was also a very practical person, so we already started like, OK, well, if this is a if this is going to be a match, how is this actually going to work? Where do we go forward from here. So that was actually very nice that it was just out in the open and. Yeah, just discussing practicalities already, which I think is very normal. That is a manager also thinks about these things, right, because they have to fulfill the position. So it is not just being nice and oh, yeah, of course, you can. You come and work. You are pregnant. No problem. No. OK, but how are we going to do this for the business? So I think that was that was really good. It was also quite easy to discuss. Like OK, you start working, and then you have your maternity leave, and then first we will focus on this and this and that. And then you have your leave and we will find someone to pick it up. And then afterward, you can just continue in the role and we'll figure it out. So it gave me a lot of confidence and. Yeah, to get into that position. But then when I got back from my maternity leave, my manager had switched.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 163 She had left and then I got a new manager and I was a completely different type of manager. And because I only had been working for maybe three months that year because I got into the position in July and then I went on maternity leave for four months. So I had only been working like two or three months in that year. We had our Ng results or end year. How do you say? Yeah, performance review and then she gave me a really bad performance review and. And I was like, OK, but what is it based on then? And she was like, yeah, well, we have this curve and I have to give someone the bad performance and well, I have not seen anything of you. So here you have the bad review. And I was like, no, but seriously, I mean. I cannot accept this right, because I mean, I understand you have not seen much of me, but the least you can do is just give me a medium, right? Because, I mean, I am new. You have to motivate me and then you are going to punish me for the fact that I have been pregnant, right? I mean, I was like, OK, this is this is ridiculous. So I actually went into her office. She was a managing director at the time I went into her office. And I told her, like, sorry, I cannot. I cannot agree with this. I think it is ridiculous. And for this reason, and then she just did not want to speak with me about it. And then all of a sudden. I think after a week or two weeks she walked past my desk and she said something very quickly like. OK, I have fixed it now. You got a medium or something like that and she just kept on walking. I did not even have the chance to respond. There was just like, OK, you got your medium shut up and continue like something like that. I was just like. OK, this is how this is a different type of support, right? So that was a negative experience and I felt really punished for her being a, A for having been on maternity leave, so to say. So yeah, that is that was an interesting learning experience because you would expect, especially from women, to understand right. And then she was actually the one giving me the hard time. So yeah. 2. Umm. And have you ever experienced or may be seen with somebody else, any sort of discrimination or stereotyping relating to their gender? Interviewee 17 Maybe not directly. I think it is more in the way men. Different behavior of men and women that maybe men are just being more forward about things and women are just like being more modest and keep things to themselves. I think that is more of a general thing I see. When I think like ohh, she would deserve much more because she is such a hard working clever woman. But she just does not think of that next step, so to say. Or she could. She could do way more than she does right now. It is just does not pop up in her head that she might be able to get the promotion or she is just she already feels. Like graceful that she can do this and where whereas men or just maybe in general, more eager to to get like these next steps. It is not that I have seen this like very specific examples, but more like a general. Feel that I get sometimes. 3. And yeah, you sort of already answered this next question, but do you feel that you were treated differently because yeah, you are a woman? Interviewee 17 In general, I have to say uh, apart from that incident, I do not feel disadvantaged in any way. No, no. If I look at now also in the team and I have always had a lot of opportunities and. Yeah, uh managers that, yeah, are used to working in balance teams and you know so it is not it is never apart from that it has never actually been any. Any problem? No.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 164 4. And do you feel that you were supported by FrieslandCampina to really be the best employee you can be, maybe through trainings or mentoring or coaching? Interviewee 17 Yeah, yeah, I think I think I feel like that because. Uh, I think there is a lot of emphasis on personal development having these dialogues. And a personal development plan. So you are a bit forced to think about also your next steps or no mid to midterm. A few or no show. So I think if you. If you embrace those kind of things, uh, there are actually a lot of opportunities to. To work on your personal development as well. I also have the privilege to be in the future leader program. So maybe for me it is a bit extra because you get all these extra opportunities. Obviously you have to get nominated and do the assessment and all those things. But then obviously there is a lot of emphasis on having these personal development programs. But I think in general, apart from the future leadership program still from the, the, the HR from the Dutch Opco as well, I think there is a lot of communication on this and I think for the whole for everybody in the OPCO to have these types of unless specifically future LEADER program but other types of personal development programs, yeah. 5. Umm. And when sort of looking back on your maternity leave times, if you look back on it, what was really good about it and what was missing? Interviewee 17 Now, before it was, it was all fine during as well. Obviously you are four months off. I think it is a little bit short though. But it depends per person like for me it was fine, but you hear a lot of times that women actually find it too. Yeah, that you have to go back to work too fast. And then after I was having a lot of thoughts about, OK, how am I going to do this when I have the baby? When I go back to work and I always had this view of myself that I want to be this working female and not going to be completely different when I have a baby and, you know, lose my ambition and all these kind of things. But I was also like, yeah, OK, but you are not going to ohh. But then I started talking to a few uh women in the company of little bit higher management like alike, OK, you are an ambitious woman. How did you deal with this when you got children? So they obviously already had a bit older children. And it is like, how, how did you do this? And to kind of get a feel for, yeah, to learn from their experiences and to make up my own mind on, on how I want to organize this. And then I. I decided I. Was going to work four days per week instead of five days and use my parental leave for it. And that was something before my maternity leave. I would have never expected to do so. It was actually a nice a nice outcome, and I think I have been really happy that I have done it because it feels like I get to see more of my children. But also being able to continue my career and make my steps. Like if you if you switch to three days of working a week, then it is quite different. I think that it will be like you will not be able to make those next steps, but with four days I think it is still fine and you will still get the opportunities from the company. It is it. It is sometimes difficult because I do get a lot of emails and calls, obviously also on my day off and. People try, you know, like they even when they know it is your day off, they will try. And then I am the kind of person that is like, OK, well, if I have a moment and children are playing and it is fine to pick up the phone, I will pick up the phone. But I have to be more harsh about it because I just should not be picking up the phone, you know, like I should have, like, a clear boundary, like, OK, this is my day off. And you can call me, but I will not pick up. And then people will learn it. And then sometimes I get into this trap that I do pick up or answer an email or chat or whatever. So it is kind of blurring then and I should not be doing that, but yeah, it is that is a that is a bit of the struggle at the moment.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 165 And what I what I find difficult is that. So you make the decision to start working four days, but the workload is not changing to four days, right? Because you still do this position and whether you do it in five days or four days, good luck to you if you choose to do it in four days. So that is. I think people do not realize that enough that it is actually. Umm, actually just doing the same and you do not get paid for it as full position, right? I mean you only get paid 80%, and I think that is something if you really want to equalize that, I think you should have the parental leave. A paid parental leave because you still expect people to fill in the whole position. 6. And do you think that having children has an influence on your career journey? Interviewee 17 Yeah, I think in the end, yes, yes. You do try to find that balance the whole time, right? Because you are also a mother. So sometimes you do choose to not work, and maybe. A. Be a happy with 90% instead of 100% or maybe 110 if you would be really put like pushing for it because you simply cannot do it all so you have to make choices. So I think in the end. Compared to someone who might be male and having a, his wife at home or having like more support at home or maybe not having children or yeah, they will be able to put more into their work. Uh, so I think it does. It does affect, yeah. They won't be able to do that even if I would have the ambition, which I do not have. But if I would have the ambition, I would still not be able to do it because I also have two children and then and then it would be like a really a sacrifice and a choice to say like, OK. I am really going for your CEO thing. Yeah, I will. It is get someone else to raise my kids. That is that is not this, that that is not a choice I will make. So it is. There is going to be a limit, so to say, yeah. 7. A lot of researchers really questioned. Yeah, women's lack of confidence has a big influence on the fact that they are just less females in leadership positions. And I am just wondering what you think about that? Interviewee 17 I think I already said something about it, I think. And I think that is the that is, that is true. I think there are more. Men who just step forward and say, OK, I will get this promotion. I will do it. Where when there may be less capable than a female in a team but she is maybe more insecure or uncertain of her own skills, or I think you will always see a difference there. Yeah, I think I think that that is that is I mean. Yeah, I think it is true. But, but yeah, obviously I am not a research, you know, at least not a scientific researcher. But for me, it feels like that is a big part of the reason, yeah. 8. Yeah. And that is sort of relates to my second question, because in your opinion, why do you then think that there are, yeah, fewer females in leadership positions at FrieslandCampina? Interviewee 17 I think it is, it is that I think it is also the fact that less female want to be in an executive position than males because they because we know what it takes and we are just consciously making the choice of not doing that because we do not think it is worth it. So maybe because we but a lot of the women had children and they know there is more in life than only work. Yeah, and of course you have you always have a few. There are always women who do who do grow into like the executive positions. And I think what you see when you look at those women is that
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 166 they have organized it so well for themselves or at least have to organize it so well for themselves at home to be able to do that job because it is just very demanding like. You cannot do such type of job in four days. It is just not possible. So yeah. Then you consciously have to make the choice to like, organize it really well for yourself to be able to do these hours. And I think that is a that takes a lot of dedication, a lot of ambition. A very clear choice and I respect women who do it, and I also respect women who say, like, hey, I might be able to do it, but I make the choice to not do it. 9. And what do you think that FrieslandCampina can do to, yeah, minimize the gender imbalance? Interviewee 17 Yeah. That is obviously the most difficult question. Because I think all companies are looking for that answer, but I think it is just. I think it starts with giving everybody the same opportunity, right? I think it talent management is very important, like risk putting the right talent and really supporting that talent to the top if they want to be there. I think that is really important and. On the other hand, I also feel like I always have a bit of a mixed feelings about the quota because on one hand I think it is good that we have the quota and we push female into those positions, but we need to make sure that they do have the right quality and they do have the right level of ambition and really want to be there, right? So I. f it is the case that less women are just naturally interested in those type of positions, then it is also fine. Like you know, you do not have to. To push a situation just because we all think it should be like that, I am it is difficult, but maybe I just I have not read probably the slightest bit on this topic as you have so. But that is generally my feeling. Like if you if someone wants it and they can do it, they should have the opportunity and maybe then it. Then it can be like pushed a little bit, but if they. Do not want it or do not have the capabilities, do not push it. And it is, I think accounts for. Yeah, anyone female, male, whatever. 10. Yeah, yeah. And do you think that FrieslandCampina at this moment makes good enough of an effort to promote that gender diversity and equality? Interviewee 17 Yeah, I think they do. At least they express that they do. That is what I see. I am I work in a in the environment that I work in is very, very much mixed, so I do not feel like choice here are being made. Like all we need a few more on this position or that because it is just naturally already I think goes well, but maybe in some parts of the business it can be pushed more. But I cannot see that. So I am not. I am not sure how it is how it is being dealt with over there. Yeah. 11. Yeah, and what advice would you have for women that sort of want to, yeah, break that glass ceiling in their careers? Interviewee 17 Yeah, just do it. Yeah, just expect you always have to. First you have to express what you want, right? Because that is a lot of the times as well. People do not explicitly say what they want, and when people do not know what you want, they cannot help you as well. So do you need to be very clear on what you want as a next step where you want to go? What? What do you think is needed or should discuss with managing with your manager what is needed to get there? And
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 167 if it is, do you think achievable as well? Or does the company might think like OK, but we do not see you in that position, just have an honest dialogue. And be clear about that and I think that is step one and then obviously in the you need a bit of luck depending on what type of manager you will find on your journey. But I think that accounts for everyone. 12. Yeah. And then what advice would you have for men that want to, yeah, support the woman better? Interviewee 17 Well, they have to obviously go for their own career as well because that is what we all should do. Despite the gender, but when they are in a position of manager where they can make choices consciously, then have a choice, right? So then they should use their choice wisely. And then they can. They can make their own assessment. And then that is where they can be an example. 13. Are there any questions or comments or yeah, anything that you have for me? Interviewee 17 No, I think it is. I think it is a very interesting topic. I am very curious to hear what your overall findings are
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 168 Appendix X Transcript Interview 18 Interview #18 Interviewee 18 Hay Grade: 22 Department: Commercial Interview Questions 1. And when you sort of reflect upon that career journey that you have had, what has really helped you and what has really hindered you? Interviewee 18 Umm, well, what helped me was, I think the. In the second year, I had an. Uh, and the manager of my manager, so my manager left at that time. And due to he did not really function very well, and then the manager of my manager became my manager. So in between because they had to find a new. Burton, and he really gave me some wings, so he really, yeah, gave me some confidence that I could really do it. And I think that really helped because that is the time where I started to believe in myself that I could, if you work hard, you can reach well, nice positions and get things done. So that was really this really helped me. Marja And is there anything you can remember that maybe Hinduja or held you back in your career? Interviewee 18 Well, sometimes I think still today. So I am working part-time. I work officially 36 hours. So I think I work like 50 hours. But on my contract, not so on Wednesday afternoon. I am at home with my children and I think the organization is. Still not flexible enough to manage that, so I am in a management team of six people angry white men, as I called them, whom all work full time and to women who work part-time. And it is always difficult. So they. So I think one on them every other week, there still has to be a meeting on a Wednesday afternoon or it is always difficult for them. So I think in my opinion this would really help if we could change that. 2. And have you, during your career FrieslandCampina, ever seen or maybe experienced, any sort of discrimination or stereotyping? Yeah. Relating to your gender? Interviewee 18 Yeah, I yeah, I, yeah, in my opinion, quite a lot. So, for example, I had this week I had to. So that is why I was rescheduling this meeting. We are in a kind of escalation with Jumbo. So the year the negotiations are quite tough this year because of all the inflation and the precedent price increases we were having. So there we need to. I had to align until Hein. So our CEO that we could stop delivering Jumbo just all our dairy. So they have a deadline today at 2:00 if they do not. Give them pay the price increase we offered them. Then we stop shipping on Monday. So you can imagine it is quite a tough because it is all fresh products and there is milk going to the factories, and we have to reschedule all supply chains. So it is quite a big one. And then I had to align that and my manager is on holiday. So I had to align it with one of the presidents, and I sat with him in a meeting real-life in Dairytorium last Monday; and then he said he did not ask me what does help looks like, but he was telling me what I should do and it is his. I also find quite an interesting way of working together, but all fine and then he said so you have
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 169 to drive to Jumbo tomorrow and then you going to tell them that they have the last chance to stop. So that they could prevent that we stopped shipping. And so, as you are a woman, you should cry. Literally, literally. So yeah, so I and then I told my manager, I told my management team, but I. I as we see, it is all day in the news. Yeah, it is. It is a topic in the program which this week is still in sexual harassment discussions are all over the place. But I did not say anything to them because I still felt it could hurt my career. Because they have so much power that is in the next people planning meeting, they say no, this is a difficult lady. I have had it more often. Also when I applied for this function two years ago, 2 1/2 years ago. Then they. Also asked me so as you have two children, will you be able to manage this position? But in my opinion, they would never ask a man. So did there are still, and I do not think they mean to hurt me, but it is still so normal to say these things that they do say it. Quite a lot, yeah. 3. And yeah, that sort of relates to my next question. But do you feel that you are treated any different because you are a woman? Interviewee 18 Yeah, I do. Yeah, definitely do so. I got this position from Menno Oosterhoff, which is uh, yeah, some kind of a friend of mine and he. So his paycheck. So he came from outside his paycheck, he earns €100,000 more per year, for the same function. €100,000, so I complained about that for, so he was really transparent what he made as an as a salary. And I complained on that for like the last two years. My manager, I have a different manager now. So and then on, I think half a year ago something the my new manager asked HR our HR director to check it with all the different sales directors in the company on and they are I also think there if there are male or female and their salary. And how long they are in a function and there was such a bit of a difference that I now got a race of 17 1/2% or something. But so there are making up a little. It is not transparent and it is I, so it is still difficult. It is it. I think there is a really big gap in payment. And as I feel like, for example, if we have a new CEO, they will never say, OK, you can start with this salary and then if you do well, then you get what you actually should get. But they do say to me, so first you have to prove you can do this. Yeah, it is really true. 4. If you sort of look back when your maternity leave and that period of time. Yeah, what was good, maybe about the support and was there anything missing? Interviewee 18 I think in the maternity before the maternity leave, so I was pregnant when I was selected to do a future leader program, so it is one of our. For the for the programs due to get to the future leaders and then HR, so we had two HR directors, one of them and at that time now we have one and then one of them told me she and she did not have children. She asked me. So now you are pregnant. Will you be able to do this program? Or maybe you should wait one year? So that is one woman saying it to the other one. And I said no, I will minutes and then after I think 5 weeks when. So when I had Christian 5 weekly, 5 weeks later it was the first week of the future leader program. So that was see when where she was a little bit hesitated, I think.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 170 But see, she advised me actually to wait one year. But I just went there are so my and my husband was at home with our boy and I could just came home every night as everybody stayed over there. But I came home. But. So I mean it is but so still. Yeah, still they, they and I think everybody. Yeah, it did. Everybody for everybody is different, but I did not feel a problem. But it is R felt there was a problem. So also quite interesting. 5. Yeah. And I have also heard from other women that I have interviewed that they actually received a worse performance review in the year. They've been on maternity leave. Did you also experience that? Interviewee 18 No. No. Shall I have? I have. I have had a really supportive manager. Really not a problem at all. He is always says family 1st and so. No, not at all. No, no at all. No, I actually, after both my maternity leaves, I got a promotion. 6. And do you think that having children has a yeah influence on your career journey? Interviewee 18 No, no, no, not really, I think so. You do not. Does not have to have influence if you manage it yourself. So my husband works at an international company and is abroad. A lot of the time. So in the last past two years in COVID, he was also at home. So we were sitting at home. Very cosy but. And so now I am starting again to see how I should manage. So now we were starting to have a nanny. So you are a little bit more flexible than she can help us out somewhere and she can cook dinner. So which is €1000 extra per month. But I think sometimes you ju st need to invest to just get to manage everything. But. And for me, I can do that. But not everybody can you know, if you have a lower position, you not everybody can do that. But and my husband is really supportive. He tells everybody that I will be the CEO. And so this is really a nice and he has a lot of a better job than I do. So he is really in terms of payments, for example and. But so that really helps. So he is always supportive. He always wants to help me out if I need to go to a dinner. So especially in the sales job I have a lot of dinners and. Meetings in the evenings and whatever, but so this is really helping. 7. And I have done quite some research on yeah, the whole topic of general diversity and we are a lot of researchers who questioned, yeah, maybe women's lack of confidence or maybe women's modesty has a negative influence on their career advancements. And I am just wondering what you think about that? Interviewee 18 Yeah, I can imagine it is, but for me it is not. So I do not have a confidence problem because I believe that it will be a self-fulfilling prophecy if you keep telling them that I will be the CEO. So that really helps. That is, at least you have to show the ambition, but not everybody is that outspoken about it. And as I am still so I am. Yeah, much more extroverted than maybe other people. So I commit. Imagine that it is, but for me it is not a. It is not the case. 8. And there was another research done. Yeah, specifically in the Netherlands and it mentioned that 60% of all working women work part-time. Do you think that has an influence on the fact that they are just less females in leadership positions?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 171 Interviewee 18 I do. Yeah, I do believe. Yeah. So I so in my ambition in my work life is to become the CEO. Uh for from FrieslandCampina or another company, but I think my. Uh, in my mission in life is to prevent that my daughter has the same challenges as I had. so I think that is I believe that we can change it. Also I tell all, my team members and everybody who wants to hear it that also they can tell their son that from if you tell them from day one that they have to do half of the households and half of the laundry and half of them so today of course it is not my. My husband never checks if the children need new shoes or new diapers or. I do not know if they have to. I never, no. So if I ask him to do a laundry or something, he will do. But he will never notice by himself. But I think if you learn your children to. Put their own plate in the washing machine. Or you know if you everybody can help the change. So I believe that that, yeah, we should just discuss it. And I tell my management team every time I can I tell them, I tell them you are all angry white men as long as you are not doing half of the household, you are not able to talk about it. Marja Yeah, actually I heard that term before. Angry, angry white men, angry old white men. Interviewee 18 Yeah, I think I believe it is. I am there is in there. I think there is one woman. Who are two, two Rashid in Malaysia and MD and Grace in China TM D that are the only two women who are above me. Because the other ones are Geraldine and Irene. There are all women but in HR. But in commercial functions that no, I do not have an inspirational person above me. So that is really, but I mean I I have got a lot of support from Hein Schumacher. I know him really well because. So I have a lot of conversations with him and he is really supportive, so he wrote for me, so I am want to apply for being a share top phone into now. So do you know that Sarah? So shall economics at that? It is a, so it is really interesting. So that is where they have a list of women who are, well, bought, ready, booked, ready. So I think I am bored ready or within a few years. So to get some inspiration. So that companies say that there are no women who can join the abort. It is not true because they have a list of 5000 who can. It is really cool. So when he wrote for me in a letter, so I could apply. So if I and I just found him and then he within two days. He sent a letter that he is proud and so he is really supportive. But his his wife is an associate professor in diversity. Yeah. So you, you could look her up. She is more Margo Schumacher. So that is where he. So that is why he really supports it. But I think there are some layers between. Who are not always aware enough. 9. And in your opinion, why do you think they are less females in leadership positions at FrieslandCampina? Interviewee 18 Because I think these, uh, angry white men hire angry white men. So yeah, so to I challenged this. For example, we have the people planning last Monday or something with my management team, my sales team and there are then we discussed what careers could be from our people. And then there is one lady who's really, really good and talented and see. She might go with her husband because he could go for a Hanukkah abroad as an MMA director or something. And I thought I asked also her manager. Did you discuss with her what her possibilities will be within Friesland Campina and what she could earn and what her career could be? Because I
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 172 think also she needs to have the confidence that he could reach that because ten years ago I started the FrieslandCampina as assistant account manager. And ten years later or eight years later, I am the sales director. But if you do not believe in yourself and you get support from my well, my so managers and my husband, then you always go with the men because the man is most of the time older. Earns more so the pay gap is so big that you think, OK, I go with the man because of our future situations will be better. But I believe we should openly discuss it with our people that it could be different if you change it yourself. 10. And what do you think that FrieslandCampina can then do to minimize the gender imbalance in the top? Interviewee 18 Yeah, did openly discuss it, get some standard rules. So I had a leadership goal from the Europe team. I think I wait 2-2 weeks ago on the Wednesday afternoon. So then I just do not go, just the principle base that just you can do it any other time. But why would you do on Wednesday afternoon? There is some standard rules to yeah. To be inclusive. So I just then what I do is then I make a print screen of this meeting invite and then I send it to my manager who gets really annoyed by me sometimes. And I just said this is not really very inclusive, is it? And then I just. This. Yeah, I think if we keep telling them, just keep telling them and that is why I sometimes feel so. So I do not mind. I will do it. But I will do it for my daughter, but we need to keep discussing it and tell them and. It is. I think it is the only way to show them. And for me to be an inspiration for the other ladies in the company, but I think that is, yeah, this discussion. So I feel a lot of passion also from Lesley and from Hein and from Irene. But I think there is still a big opportunity to. To make some progress. 11. Definitely. Then what advice would you have for women that maybe are a little bit more in the start of their career and they really feel that there is a glass ceiling? What advice would you have for them? Interviewee 18 Yeah, Finding a female mentor. If they want to. And to yeah, just to create more awareness on the gender diversity. It would be very, very transparent if they just look up in Horizon, what are they, what is the salary gap. It is not not that big of an. Uh, task. You can do that in. We can do that together in one week, right? Yeah. So I think so that is that. We should just show also the board members, the fact these are the facts. And to make a correction to see that that we do not do it that way and to be more inspirational in every quarter. And I do not know in, in, in the session too. To let the people share their stories, their personal stories, how they got there, and how we can help each other. That would be I think we can do that, yeah. 12. And what advice do you have for men that want to support the woman better? Interviewee 18 Yeah, that, that they should be aware. And that they could change the next generation as the same, like stop smoking that you know that we do not want our children to smoke and that that you cannot smoke or you cannot buy it anywhere just it. But we have to do the same if we want the next generation. To not have this, this, this uh this issue anymore or have some I see it also as a as an opportunity if we do more with the diversity we have better well we know all the facts. Today could also help.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 173 13. Yeah, yeah. Also looking at the time, I think those were my most critical questions to you. Are there any questions or comments that you have for me? Interviewee 18 No, I think it is great that you do this. This interviews and this, this thesis.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 174 Appendix Y Transcript Interview 19 Interview #19 Interviewee 19 Hay Grade: 23 Department: Finance Interview Questions 1. If you reflect upon that career journey that you have had, what has really helped you and what has really hindered you? Interviewee 19 I think, uh, what helped me in my career is having a very business partner that you can really work together in a very pleasant way. I think from the beginning on. I have worked at Herman is my boss, so. And he is really a very open, transparent person and also someone whom you can really easily communicate with. So I think I was quite lucky in between. I have worked two years with the former President Kathy, so have also a bit of difference in styles between those two and I think, but that is for me personally very important is also the teams where I work in my kind of my management team and but also my only. And my own finance teams that you are really that you are creating an open and transparent culture where people can tell what they think, feel or. And I think that makes a difference. And I, in my opinion, ingredients has that within FrieslandCampina. Marja Yeah, yeah. And can you think of anything or maybe also in your previous company, anything that might have, yeah, hindered you? Interviewee 19 Our hindered I, I think we are there for instance within Heinz there especially when Heinz was first at the. A centralized company. And and then become became private equity in 2013. I think when that happened, there was really a masculine, pushy spell where it is not about people anymore. So if you look at what is important for me but in general, I think for, for women and for men. But I think women are in an earlier stage see that as a blocker. That man if you. Cannot express kind of and have a more, uh. Make your own choices. Being able to balance kind of private work life, things like that. And also when there is no possibility to do the right things for people. I think that, in general that is for me blocking in, in, in, in making steps, but there are also is staying at the company, and my key reason for leaving Heinz was really about not being able as a leader to do the right thing from a people. 2. And yeah, during your career, have you maybe seen or experienced yourself any sort of discrimination or stereotyping related to, yeah, someone's gender? Interviewee 19 I think what becomes a bit difficult then and that is I think you see that in different areas. So I have worked a couple of years in sales. I have also worked in finance two kinds of disciplines which is quite male oriented and I think the biggest challenge in those environments is not to become one of them. So kind of but really stay true to yourself and I think that is the most challenging kind of in. And then in making the steps would also working in such an environment that you do not try to become one of them, but really that they are open for different styles and for different gender but also other. And things that people around you are saying are open and I think you need to be quite. True to yourself, but also sometimes quite
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 175 tough because I have experience in my career. For instance, when I was in sales, I had an I had a boss who was not really supporting women in roles. So then you are quite on your own, and also the for me the consequence was that I was also not asking a lot for a lot of help from him. And then you are struggling a lot. So it has to do with, I think, personal. And personal click with the people around you, but a lot about others also and then being able yourself to be vulnerable and to also discuss. Hey, this is what it does with me and I think. And maybe that is one of the things where that, that is truly about me. I am quite open and transparent. But I also say what I think of giving my opinion also when others do not like it. But that helps a lot at least in your you are getting rid of that negative emotions or feelings that you can create in some of those moments, and at least then you are staying true to yourself, you have said OK, I do not like this. I do not I am not going to do this. Were I do not want to work like this, and then at least you are creating an opportunity to make it better. And if you do not tell, I think others will not know because I also believe that a lot of those situations are not intentional. That is just because someone else is also kind of doing having some primary behavior and not really thought about this. Yeah. So. But. But I never experienced the situation where I am getting really harassed or things like that. I had some tough conversations and also some unpleasant ones, but never that I really felt. 3. And do you feel that you were treated any different because, yeah, you are a woman? Interviewee 19 I think in some not because I am a woman itself. But I think in some of the discussions, for instance in the MT, we had a discussion about about diversity and gender kind of. Discussion and then, yeah. Then there are like five or six guys telling kind of what women think. And I was looking to Danielle and Danielle was looking back. And I said I am really not feeling comfortable to have discussion with six men about kind of improving the number of women in leadership roles. And that is about the other side of the coin because I truly believe in diversity, but it should not be kind of the case that women should get preference. Over men? Yes, if they I I am OK if they are really at the same level. So, for instance if you can choose and you have two good candidates, but not because you are a woman. Because if you are getting your job because you are getting woman, then you are not taking. Like they do not take you seriously as well and I think that is also. A bit of a finding the right balance. And I think you need to truly want it, because and that is maybe a good subject and I do not know if someone else mentioned it already to you, but we had aboard, at FrieslandCampina, which consisted of two more women previously. Which Kathy before him and I, I think one of the learnings is why does not it work? And because you had more and then no matter, I do not know exactly why it did not work out, but the question then is OK. The team around it, do we really make sure that we create an environment that everyone can win and we create a better team because we are different? And I think that that is sometimes I think a penny if you see then for a while we are doing quite good also as a company and you see especially on lower levels it is quite diverse. But I think the higher you come in your organization, the, the more challenge still on the on the. And that is also asked to do with women getting kids and so that that, of course has an impact as well. 4. And do you feel that you are supported by FrieslandCampina to be the best employee you can be, maybe through coaching or mentoring or training?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 176 Interviewee 19 Yeah, I think if you. I think that there also here there are two sides of the coin and I think if you are really explicit on it and tell what you want, yes. And I think that is also bad in combination. I think with the then the opportunity the company sees in you, so if you are a good performer and you are really explicit on what you would like to. Involving in the course or mentoring or things that you need. Then yes, but I think you if you are kind of sitting and waiting for us. Then it is less organized. So. So I think and in that sense, it is really dependent on you as a person, but also on your manager, because if your manager is really open and think development of peoples is really important, yes. Then then you see those people really coming up. But it is really also about the manager spending enough time on their people on their knees. 5. Looking back at your maternity leaves, what was sort of good on your like, the support that you received before, during and after or. Yeah, was there anything missing? And what would you like to have? Interviewee 19 Now maybe I am a bit of a weird, weird person. No, I was really happy that I could work again. So I was maybe a bit different than some of the some of the other experiences around me. But I am so, so I especially so my first one. I am also I am very active. I like to work. I am I have a lot of energy. So I was also really happy that I could work again. I think what is important and what was a bit missing, the first kind of the first, the first maternity leave from the elders, there was not a lot of contact in between. I think what you need as a person at home is also that your manager pays attention to you if you are not in the office. I think that that is especially something that men should be a little bit more aware of. So I think that that is really something. OK, how are you doing? Then if the baby is there that they at least give you a visit or having and then that should not be really a week after but after a month or two that is really fine and also nice to experience and I think and that is that was less the case with me because I really would like to work, but some of the people would like to have a bit more time over gradual kind of coming back and I think that is. That discussion or that talk with people about what they need and how they feel and do they feel comfortable going back to work or do they need a bit more time. I think that that is well appreciated and in that way you show that you are flexible and I think. At that time, at times, nobody spent a lot of time. You went on maternity leave and then you come back. But in the cases that you are not coming back because you are not feeling well, where people quit, or there was not a lot of attention for. And if I I know look at my own team, I have a few women that are also really trying to accommodate. Yeah. Then I am really aware of those things and also ensure that you do not kind of. That they feel that they can do what they want, so you should not exaggerate it. But you should also spend some time sending an app or having a phone call. A little bit balanced to uh and and also giving the feeling. So I said to one of the ladies in my team which now on maternity leave do not say what you are doing before you go on maternity leave. Just first deliver the baby and joy and then after a month or so then we are going to have a talk out which feels for you and what you want and or not want and she said also that she really liked it that I was quite flexible in it but I think that works best. Yeah. And some of the people get kids that sleep perfectly and do not have any problems at all. Others are nights awake and having a lot of trouble. And I think that that is also the case for men because I think. And that is also a bit different nowadays. Of course, men and women do it much more together. So what's the impact on the younger man especially in that first period? Having a less sleep and a lot of new responsibilities. So I think that the awareness for that and
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 177 also kind of the. But having the talks about what it does for do or what it does for people, yeah, I think that is important. Marja Yeah, yeah, because now I have also heard that, for example, women in a certain year when they take their maternity leave. So there are away for 4-5 months, they actually get a bad performance review because they weren't there for quite a yeah period of time. But the performance reviews are, yeah, less good than they would normally be. And for example, if men also do not take paternity leave, men will just continue getting good performance reviews. And then there will be more of a difference there. Interviewee 19 But I think it is really ridiculous that you get a less good performance, ridiculous performance review that that for I think it is much more difficult in such a year to really get an Excel, huh? But I do if you have every year in Excel rating yet, then it could have an impact because you are like four or five months not there. But I think in our cases, it should not be the case because you should evaluate the the period that someone is in. And but I think that is one of the things. Also if you look to career perspectives between men and women, because if a woman is going out twice, maybe some in three times in a that really creates that difference in career steps and it is difficult and to kind of catch up and then you get an A yeah. Then you also feel a bit more neglected so to say, whereas in total what is it, maybe 1 1/2 years. Or not even a year. If you have two kids. So where? Where are we talking about? And often women start earlier with working their men because they are quicker in studies and things. So it shouldn't be any different. 6. And yeah, do you think that having children has an influence on your career journey advancement? Interviewee 19 Yeah, because, uh, if I see my team also my management team, the man and taking the woman the woman take a much bigger carrying role at home. So you work the same kind of office hours as the men, but they are coming home. Then they are dinner ready. They do not often they do not do a lot anymore. And you see that the women have kind of their job still when they are going home. So I think in general, and that is maybe a bit black and white. Because they are more facilitators. And you see, you see less. That is yeah. Maybe in a few instances, you see less than. That both have a career in settings, so it is it is most of the time one of the two at home has a career again. 7. There were a lot of researchers who, yeah, claimed that women's lack of confidence has a negative influence on their career advancements. And I am just wondering what you think about that? Interviewee 19 Yeah, modesty sometimes I think that there is a big difference because in general and there is also bore bit more general lies. And I think women think that they just show what they do good and prove it with the output with what they deliver but not the ones screaming how good they are. And I think in general men are more. Uh, vocal about what they deliver and how good they are, and therefore they also get a bit more appreciated in that sense. And in Dutch, the brutality of the whole for vehicles but that kind of thing and that is what you see in especially if they are kind of men select selecting the next one to go up, yeah then then that that is if you if you are
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 178 not really aware of that I think that that happens yeah for sure but I do not know if it is lack of confidence. It is sometimes it is, yes, but it is also, I think the I do not know the best guide I have had a bit more. 8. Yeah, yeah. And there was another research done specifically in the Netherlands and it mentioned that 60% of all the working women in the Netherlands work part-time. Do you think that that has an influence on the fact that there are fewer females in leadership positions? Interviewee 19 Yeah, yeah, I think the culture in the Netherlands working full time as a woman, people have an opinion about it and that makes it also difficult if you coming from maternity leave and you are saying that you are working five days a week, then people look at you. I eat and I think that is part of what we create in the Netherlands, much more. If you look for, for instance, to Sweden or what's really facilitates where people go to daycare and one is working and then you get also more equal chances. And I think, yeah, I think there is kind of my, my generation is about is about. I am going to work again 5 days. First part time. I think the new generation where you are part of is also what I like to work full time and but that is not only for women but also for men because they we are kind of more. We are living to work and you guys are working to live and also that is also more black and white. But I think the way you are grown up and then and the values that you get. I think it is very important in that, yeah, yeah. 9. Yeah. And in your opinion, what do you think there are less females in leadership positions at FrieslandCampina? Interviewee 19 Ah, that is super important. I think. I think there are quite some woman quitting just before kind of entering to that senior level. And I think that is the combination that, that the, the pressure on in the rules in combination with the with the pressure or carrying rule at home. So it is not being able to really. Balance your work life balance and I think it is also I think in, in, in the more masculine areas where they do not feel they can really. Sait as an and acts differently, so I think where you see most women quitting is in the masculine areas. Yeah. So, so I think what we need to do is to create a more flexible environment during stages of your life, because I think also in the end. So, so you have them for women when they when they are getting children and but you see it also a bit more at the senior level that a lot of people get have a forced exit when they become over kind of 50 not being that protective anymore but. Very high level. So I think what we need to think of as an organization, but also in in the Netherlands broadly is how do you really create a career development wherein the end of your career you also again lowering kind of that is normal that you go a bit down again in responsibilities, but also in your remuneration. That we really think about how should we enable the right work-life balance but also the right responsibilities given kind of the phase in your life where you are in. And I think if we can think of that and I think for women it is really about pregnancy going back to work but also but also creating much more inclusive balanced environments, yeah, sure. 10. And yeah, what advice do you have for women that you are looking to sort of break that glass ceiling in their careers?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 179 Interviewee 19 And I think one is being really true to yourself. And then what you think and your ideas to is finding the right mentors or sponsors around you. And I see that for myself also as a big task and responsibility to get other women further in their careers and having those open conversations and sometimes also really I think it is never without a fight or a Sometimes you have to push your national flighting sometime. Sometimes you have to push through something to get it realized and to get to a next level in inclusivity. And I think that that is the case with this as well, because it is never easy to be the first or one of the first in in, in, in. In your environment so that takes a bit of a of a fight and a persistence to get that done. And I think if you do that with respecting you always stay true to yourself. I think that that is the most important thing to do, and otherwise then you need to quit. So do not stay if you do not feel respected or appreciated in that sense to be open and vocal about it. 11. Yeah. And then what advice do you have for men that want to support the women better? Interviewee 19 Ran two after real conversations. What is driving there and then then not only kind of for the forum, but really think about what do you need and how can I help you in that and also and what you see is that in general I think women also like to even work harder to kind of show that they can and make use of that and enable women to go kind of home early because they will work in the evenings when the when the little kid is sleeping they are working or. So. So I think in general, the women that are working and would like to get to the next level, they put a lot of time and effort into it. So it is not motivation, not at all. I think it is really an enabling to do everything and you cannot expect from all the women that that they have so much energy, energy to really being able to do the that themselves. So I think it is really about the balance. 12. Uh, yeah, I think those were my most important questions to you. Are there any questions that you have for me? Interviewee 19 No, good luck with your thesis!
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 180 Appendix Z Transcript Interview 20 Interview #20 Interviewee 20 Hay Grade: 19 Department: Commercial Interview Questions 1. If you reflect upon the career journey that you have had within FrieslandCampina, what has really helped you in your career and what is really hindered you? Interviewee 20 Yeah, what helped me I. I ran into quite a few people around me, like managers or directors that were very open to discuss. Qualities and capabilities. Things that we are running very well to see, OK, what should be a next step. So that really helps. There was always plenty of room for. Uh trainings both like real training off-site, but also on the job. They are getting assignments that would help for a next step. And coaches, do not direct in the line, but also people elsewhere that we are always willing to have a conversation and yeah, get. Things together to to. Yeah, what? It should be next. And there was always something interesting that came along in making a next step. So yeah Marja And do you remember anything that might of yeah, maybe held you back a little bit in your career? Interviewee 20 I think every now and then there was someone that I would run into a conversation that would be like oh yeah, a move from Finance to commercial that is really impossible or I do not know, like someone claiming that something would be impossible. That just left it there. I do not know. It is just not. Yeah. If you get all sorts of advices and so might just leave behind. So yeah, that is a but I think. Yeah, no real big hindrances or yeah. 2. And then yeah, when looking back at your career again, have you maybe experienced or maybe seen, yeah, somebody else any sort of discrimination or stereotyping relating to their gender? Interviewee 20 Yeah, I have been thinking about that a lot lately as I am also taking on a little side project and I think in the past ten years. Things did change within three sons company now where I remember a situation when I just started. And there is a comment in a conversation would not be female friendly. And I would raise my eyebrows. Like, what is happening here? I would even tell someone later. Like, oh, you should really not accept such a comments or do something like coach each other. However, at that time, it will still be something that is happened. And I think today. I do not see any of that anymore like. I have not seen it in a very long time, so that is definitely changed. I think sometimes people believe that things. And cannot be done. For example, if you want to work four days instead of five. But if you open up the conversation and say, yeah, I really like to do that job and I believe I can do it in four days, then I think it should at least be something to discuss. So to perception is sometimes still there, but if you are willing to break it open and make it something of a discussion, it is possible. But it is somewhere in the back of the heads. So yeah.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 181 3. Umm. And do you feel that you were treated any different because yeah, you are a woman? Interviewee 20 Yes. Uh. And maybe not in. Getting a job or not, but more in the day to day conversations. There are a lot of, yeah, I am in quite a few. Situations where it is more men than women and. I do see that they treat me differently than they do, treat each other, and that is something I think more by nature than. On purpose. But yeah, that is definitely a, yeah, a difference. But I do not believe in this. Advantages me. Marja Umm yeah. Do you have any examples that? Interviewee 20 I think they are a bit more, uh. I think they may sometimes be tougher on each other than on me. Yeah, yeah, they would make, like, tougher jokes on each other. And I think sometimes also because they are afraid they say something wrong towards the woman, so that maybe one of its. I think also like when they are making jokes, I also feel like ohh yeah it is just like in when you are in elementary school, like when the boys are fighting and then like, OK, can we get over these guys like that? Yeah, more of that, but it is, yeah. 4. And do you feel that you are supported by FrieslandCampina to really be the best employee you can be maybe through trainings or you already mentioned the coach? Interviewee 20 Yeah, I think there is quite a. Good support and good network and if you reach out, people are willing to help. Think along and yeah. Marja And yeah, may I ask if you have any children? Interviewee 20 Yeah, I have a stepson that is and here. That is Fiona. He is 8 years old. He is with us 50% of the time. And then we have a daughter, three years old and then one year, one year old. So yeah. 5. If you sort of look back on those two times that you have had maternity leave, yeah, what was really good about it? And like, in terms of support and yeah, what was missing? Interviewee Well, the first time I really had someone fill in my position while I was gone and then leaving is a lot easier. I remember leaving this building really being like, OK, someone is going to take to look after my professional baby and I am going to have a baby on my own and. And then leaving is and letting go and focusing on what is happening in the coming. Weeks is a lot easier than the second time because then the tasks were divided amongst a lot of other people, and it is. It does not feel as comfortable because you know that a lot of people have additional work on their plates and. I remember leaving then was a bit more difficult to. That is definitely making a difference. Besides that, I feel like it was well supported. Everyone was very realistic,
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 182 like OK guys, this is four months. So at the end of the world here, back in the blink of an eye, and that was all fine, yeah. 6. Yeah. Do you think that having children has an influence on your career journey? Interviewee 20 I think maybe not on the journey, but. I have to work a bit harder because I. I do not want to, like do anything less, however, just less time and the same workloads like that is the difficulty that I am having, and maybe that is also a bit more on myself. Like what do I, where do I put the yeah. Yeah, but I think in terms of. Carriere and steps I have in the past reorganization I made and step up, so I got promoted, which was. One month after I reserved from maternity leave showed that did not change. Uh, like two days before I left on maternity leave, I was in an assessment for the future leader program, so it was like everything just kept going. But I do remember that it is. Required a lot of. Yeah, extra energy or inputs to make it happen because it is a yeah, it is a bit tougher. Yeah. Marja Yeah. And I am just curious, but it were your performance ratings lower in the years that you went on maternity leave? Interviewee 20 I think yes, because in the other years it would be easier to excel. And in the year that I was gone, it would be a meet because I missed part of the year or yeah. 7. There were quite some researchers who, yeah, questioned women's lack of confidence and the influence that it has on their yeah. Career advancements. And I am just wondering if you yeah. Agree with that or disagree with that? Interviewee 20 So it is true and I am also when having conversations. I tried to challenge myself to. What the assessor of the conversation is expecting me to do. If I can answer being a woman, or if I can answer as if they are expecting an answer from a guy. As I believe that. But I would prefer to share what I have done and proven, and I would share what I believe I can do by proving that I did it. And I think that is where the difference lies between men and women, because a guy will be like, well, I think I think I will be able to of course I will. I will be able to do it because and then just and then the I think the proof points would be similar. So we I definitely believe there is a difference. And I also believe that it is. It is really important that the person conducting the interview is aware of the differences. I actually had to conduct an interview myself and for a role in my team. And uh, two weeks ago there were two guys I interviewed with and the coming week it will be two female colleagues applying for a job. And I opened note that the conversations will be totally different. And it is really making the mind shift of, OK, well, how are they going to present themselves and yeah. 8. And there was another research done, specifically in the Netherlands, and it mentioned that 60% of the working women in the Netherlands work part-time. Do you think that that has any influence on the fact that they are, yeah, less females in leadership positions?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 183 Interviewee 20 Yeah. And I think that. Role modeling. Uh would really help us. And I also remember that when I had the first one, I had this conversation with my manager. Like, how do I want to return? And I wanted to return four days a week instead of five. And I remember taking a male colleague as an example. Like, hey, this guy is doing it as well. He is always off on Fridays. If something is happening, you are able to reach out to him. He just has his kids at home. So that is the only. Remark. For the Fridays and I was like, that is what I would have to and it was very easily accepted where I think it would have been a bit more difficult if I would have a female example in the. Yeah, the discussion, yeah. 9. And in your opinion, why do you think that there are less females in leadership positions at FrieslandCampina? Interviewee 20 I think we value. Qualities a lot that are by nature more Yeah, male part of the organization of the population. Yeah, yeah. 10. And what do you think, FrieslandCampina can do to minimize that gender imbalance in in the top? Interviewee 20 You have to step in and change it like really make a swift by a positive discrimination. And realize that that is just an easy start, because then the hard work starts in being inclusive and finding role models both male and female, in how you want us to. Run the business in an inclusive way, so I think it is, yeah, we shouldn't be too. Panics about this imbalance because it is really, I mean, you are just there isopen positions and you hire females and then you meet the standards but realize that then the hard work starts because if. They live within two years because people say, ohh listen I you do not show this and this behavior and it is only boxes, you can tick that are typically. Then you still do not need this diversity and inclusive. Yeah, atmosphere. Yeah. 11. And do you think that FrieslandCampina at this moment makes yeah, good enough of an effort to, yeah, promote the gender equality and diversity? Interviewee 20 I think the there is a lot of effort and grace effort. I feel like it is really on the plate of the D&I team where it should be a shared. Activity A shared KPI, a shared responsibility to make it happen. So I think that is. Where we can take a step up. Marja The for example, every team gets a yeah KPI to to reach a certain amount of women for example, or non-Dutch people in the team. Interviewee 20 Yeah, yeah, those types of things, but also in what do I change in terms of behavior and? I am a bit I am aware of. Hey, I am. I have an open position. I have male and female applicants. They interview different. Everyone should be aware of this difference. So we also need to train managers like, OK, this is the difference. Make people aware of bias. Make show like also higher up in the organization. Have people. Koshare responsibilities and jobs to show that also in senior roles. You can work four days a week, for example, because it is. It is really possible,
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 184 and when you talk to senior leaders, sometimes they say, yeah, it shouldn't be an issue that you work four days a week. Yeah, that is just like do not say stuff like that. It is possible and it is doable. There are companies out there that have co CEO. I mean, why not, right? So it is I think it. Yeah, it should be more like that, yeah. 12. And what advice would you have for women that, yeah, want to look or looking to break the glass ceiling in their career? Interviewee 20 I would just say that is like just believe that there is no glass ceiling and and finds sponsors. Coaches reach out to people. Uh, share your ambition and also your conditions. And find ways where you can do it with your conditions because like there will be people out there that say no, it is impossible. Impossible to leave the sales team if you do not work five days a week. And I recently had a conversation with my team and they were like, Oh yeah, it is fine that you were there four days a week. I was like, wow, this is quite something that is also people give back to you and it is. Yeah, that is just keep going, yeah. 13. And what advice do you have for men that want to support the women better? Interviewee 20 Yeah, I think men should realize that it is not a. A problem of the female colleagues, but it is really a. Opportunity to really make the business better. By involving and and like being inclusive to female colleagues or a more diverse team in in terms of background. The first step is being aware that there are differences, but then also realizing that it is not like we are going to be a group of activists that are going to make the change. But we really need the men because they are, they outnumber us. So we definitely need them to create that tipping point of 50%, but even then they are needed to, yeah, help us move ahead and create that gender balance. 14. Yeah, I think that those were the questions that I wanted to ask you. Are there any questions or comments that you have for me? Interviewee 20 No I think you triggered me with uh, do you the question around how men are involved in this world, that discussion I think up until now it FrieslandCampina that has been missing. But also not only at FrieslandCampina, so I also when I think about the topic, there is also still. And that everyone leaving for maternity leave has a counterpart at home? Who is? Or is not taking paternity leave and also the other way around and it is. It would help it if I think as a company we would be more aware of the role of men in this whole discussion. So it is a yeah, I think there we have. Quite some steps to take. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But besides that, I think a lot of the stuff was covered.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 185 Appendix AA Transcript Interview 21 Interview #21 Interviewee 21 Hay Grade: 22 Department: Legal Interview Questions 1. If you reflect upon that career journey that you have had within Friesland Campina. What has really helped you and what has really hindered you in your yeah career growth? Interviewee 21 What is really help me is the freedom that I have been given and the opportunities that were provided to me. I have always had a very positive experience. Uh, which jumping onto new opportunities. And I have always, always been keen and open about my ambition to develop myself further. In terms of personal development , I was all I can compare the bit to my previous company and there you see an overlap in uh investing in people so far, I went to Los Ham. I went to Fontainebleau and in FrieslandCampina. So that is kind of a an MBA similar program. So really focused on management and change management and actually key personal. Skills that you have to develop if you would like to be a good manager. Marja And is there anything that you can think of that might have hindered you or maybe held you back in your career? Interviewee 21 No, no, really not. If there was something holding you back within FrieslandCampina it is your own. Uh, it is yourself. So it is either because you deliberately choose to make a different choice. Because you do not have the ambition or the timing is not right. So I like I made the decision to stay in the Netherlands because of my husband. I have seen more people making a similar choice because they got children, et cetera. So no in to the contrary, when I was at my previous company and I wanted to work four days a week because I have got three kids. So there was quite intensive at the beginning. I can tell you and at my previous company, I really had to struggle for this part-time work week because there is an American company and they just did not understand it and they kept saying no and it is a two way St and you'll have and so and here within FrieslandCampina I have. I have not observed any of such an obstacles, no. 2. Umm. And then yeah, maybe have you ever seen or experienced yourself any sort of discrimination or stereotyping or maybe, yeah, unconscious bias relating to your gender? Interviewee Yeah, of course everybody is biased, and so I would not lie if I say it wasn't and I have experienced that all along my career. I remember one time at the competition authority when I was your age, so I would not bit older. But in my 20s and I was conducting an interview with a CEO that was that had engaged in illegal, collusive, collusive behavior. So I asked him questions, and he was really like, are you pretty, blonde and so. And that always strengthened me, because then I think, oh, wow. He is trying, you know, he is trying to to to **** me off. Uh, so I am on something. So I really do it. And also yeah, so. No, and I am not the type that
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 186 that really gets uh, that is really pushed away or gets very nervous about that kind of. Nonsense or bias No. 3. And do you feel that you are treated any different because you are a woman? Interviewee Well, in a positive way, yes, because I think if you are a woman, people treat you. Uh. With more respect, maybe, but in in. In in meetings, I really never experience any difference because it because of me, because of my gender. We are always value the opinion and everybody's equal in. That is it. 4. And do you feel that you are supported by FrieslandCampina to really be the best employee can be maybe through yeah. Mentoring or coaching or trainings? Interviewee Yes, I am now part of Lead To Win. And that has been, you know, that has come to a full stop during COVID. So you know that is basically. Yeah, that is that. That was stopped for everybody. But in general, I believe that Frieslandcampina is investing in its people and I always try to do the same with my people. So I invest in people in on content. So yeah, I am working with experts, so I am really there are some postgraduate courses on content like labor law or commercial law competition law. And I'd rather invest in something expensive, but. Well spent because you really learned something and then in then, yeah, some lousy course. And also on personal development. UMI. Yeah, I am consciously. And I think the whole management team, we really are focusing on people development and engaging with the coach for people that need it and want it. That is really I think that is really important that people also need to express an ambition themselves. And do not expect other people you know to be developed and to be coached and to be told and to be offered the opportunity you have to actively show your ambition and. Yeah. Jump on the opportunities and there you really then you can see make a difference and then you are offered the opportunity. 5. You had your maternity leave before you started working at FrieslandCampina, but I am going to ask the question anyway, but if you look back on your sort of maternity leave period of when you became a mom, yeah. What was missing or what was good about the support you have received? Interviewee What I what I really and that is maybe me what I really liked is the connection that we made during my leave. So my colleagues kept you know in touch with me. And I really missed the work. I am I always. Yeah. Tell my children that I am a better mom if I am a working mom and my sister. She is a flight attendant, so she is she spends a lot of her time with her children. And she is also a perfect mom. So you know it is. Uh, I do not know. It is practice what you preach and just be the best version of yourself. Whatever you do and in my leave. Yeah, I do not. I cannot really recall having missed anything or particularly valued anything. I think the attention is really helpful. So that is what we do as well. If somebody becomes a dad or a mom because that also a dad would, there is this present that we always give them and that is a wooden cow with wheels on it. So. So It is kind of a bike, but then you can use it to walk, so it is.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 187 Marja Yeah, yeah, because I talked to, you know, some more woman before this interview or interviewed more women. And I think one very that a lot of women face was having to tell your manager that you are pregnant or may be pregnant again because the reactions were either not really nice or they. When they went on leave, they were just sort of forgotten about because the manager thinks like ohh, she needs her time and I am just going to leave her alone. But then, you know, the females like, why does no one contact me like I am this is a milestone in my life. Like why I am being forgotten a little bit or that is what it felt like. Interviewee Yeah. And I have experienced that before with a man who became a father and was really disappointed that we did not come and visit his wife and little baby. And we were all like, Oh my God. Well, you know, I do not want to intrude in your family. And your wife and she, you know, she is not happy to receive us. And then she said and it is so good to be explicit about what you expect and whatnot and yeah. 6. And do you think that having children has an influence on your career journey? Interviewee Absolutely, of course. Because you reprioritize and you have to maintain a work life balance and you have to be able to go home when your children are sick or at least ensure that your children are a good taking care of. Yeah, yeah. Now I work five days a week. But when the children were younger, I worked four days a week and spent that free day really with the children. And I see more dads doing that as well. So in the end of the day, I do not think it hammered in any way. And my promotions. Uh, but yes, it influenced my work. It influenced my work life balance. Yeah, and we rather quickly engaged a nanny so that gave a lot of mental rest because she was there to take. Take care of the children. So when there were little I could go out the house at 7:30 and she would be there. And when I would come home at 7:30, she was there and the children were, you know, fat and all happy. And sitting on the couch in their pajamas. Mummy, mummy. So you know that that really gave a lot of rest. And to me and my husband so. Yeah, that really helps. 7. And I have done quite some research on the on the whole topic, and there were some researchers that really question whether, yeah, women's lack, lack of confidence really influences their career advancements. And I am just wondering what you think about that? Interviewee And then you mean lack of confidence in comparison to men in general, like in general trait of women? Marja Yeah, for example. That women are less likely to say ‘hey I want that promotion because I think I am good enough’ Interviewee Yeah. And it is not all men and all women are the same. But I have expressed in time and manager, and I am also managed. Yeah, men, that they are indeed a more blunt and yeah. And that is something to be to be conscious about and because it is good to be explicit about being
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 188 ambitious because. There is nothing wrong with that. And it helps you because it helps a manager as well to know the ambition of the people. So what we are trying to what we are doing is that we encourage our people to be open about their ambition. So we use the personal development plan since it was launched and that really helps in facilitates the dialogue on. On future ambition, and it also requires a manager that really ask what is your admission. So that you would help women to be more explicit about it. 8. And in your opinion, why do you think there are less females in leadership positions at Friesland Campina? Interviewee I think I do not know. I do not. I honestly do not know. I it is, I. I am not part of any selection process, so I cannot tell and I cannot judge. I do not know if it is a matter of not enough women expressing the possibility or just men that do not see and value. Particular strength of women as much as they value other strengths of men I do not know. 9. And what do you think that FrieslandCampina can do Yeah, to really minimize that gender imbalance? Interviewee Well, maybe set a quota. Like we've done or and what you see is that there are now legislative quota imposed on boards and supervisory boards and since I am legal, I know a lot about that and I see that it works because it forces people to consider women and to think about the balance. I do not, really. I am. I am not a fan. I would not be. It would not help my confidence. If I was promoted because I was a woman and there was this quota. So for me it it would not be very helpful and it would really not. Yeah. Make me feel more comfortable and confident, but it does help I guess. I think it is needed. 10. And do you think that frieslandcampina at this moment makes good enough of an effort to promote gender equality? Interviewee What I think Lesley and her team are very active. Uh, so I see a lot of attention and awareness now starting to come up. Uh, on diversity and awareness. If I look at the legal organization. We are in balance, I mean. We have, I do not know of 50% women. Uh, and 50% men all around the world globally so. Yeah. Also, female legal leaders are if are there. So Indonesia, Pakistan, Malaysia, so quite male dominant countries, they have a female leader. 11. And what advice do you have for women that really are looking to break that glass ceiling or maybe a mere more in the beginning of their career? Interviewee Yeah, be open about your ambition and. Go for opportunities go for, go for it and ensure that. Uh, you gain as much as experience and as you can. Enjoy the journey. Do not focus only on the top. Enjoy the journey. 12. Umm. And what advice do you have for men that want to yeah, support women in that process better?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 189 Interviewee Uh, yeah, be conscious of the fact that women might not be as outspoken as, as, as other as their male equivalent. Well, I must say I have very positive experience with my male manager so. Uh. Learned from them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look at. Look at them. 13. So that was my last question for you. So I would just want to leave a little bit of space, if you have any questions or comments or maybe examples that you would like to raise to me? Interviewee No, not really. One more idea to stimulate equal treatment is to give men equal rights, like the paternal leave men are entitled to in the Netherlands. I see a lot of new fathers using these rights. This creates at least 2 benefits: 1) care of children is more equally shared between parents; and 2) helps men to understand dilemmas better. Marja Yes, good one!
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 190 Image 2, Codes Atlas.ti Appendix BB Group Codes Atlas.ti As mentioned in the methodology, Atlas.ti is used as a tool to transcribe the interviews. Below in image 2 the overview of all code and code groups can be seen.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 191 Appendix CC Pilot Test Interview and Outcome Interview Questions 1. So you just mentioned your career before FrieslandCampina, was there also a personal choice of joining FrieslandCampina? Interviewee Yes, there was also a bit of a personal choice because, Umm, I have worked for a long time for a consultancy firm that was the only thing that I have done after my study, and then I thought to broaden my skill sets. It would also be a good idea to work for a corporate firm, and I think for me personally Umm, I like it when it is a corporate which has a name that everyone knows and also a kind of important company. It is all the more fun that it is a multinational because there's so much more to do within our multinational company. 2. So then, yeah, reflecting upon your career journey, what has really helped you and what has really hindered you in your career growth? Interviewee What has he hindered me to start with, well, it is a bit difficult to bring the right words to reflect that. But I think it is more a personal judgment within the area I worked mainly at my previous company. But also, if you look at FrieslandCampina, my main contacts are men. At least all of the clients I worked with 80 / 90%, were men. I think that is definitely more of something that is struggling women, and I think I have had some problems with that. As you tend to take extra steps and do extra work to kind of prove, I do not know to who, maybe to myself, but also to other people at the table, that you can work equally or that you can provide an equal input into the discussion and into the work that men I think are really used to do. And that is kind of as a woman, some, some somehow or somewhere in your mind, you were inclined to take that extra step. And I have also done that. And that sometimes has hindered me because then I have also had thoughts in my head like I needed to work harder to be at the same level as the men around the table. So that has kind of hindered me. What has really helped me in my career is, I think, uhm, building your own network of people. That is definitely an important thing to do. So that one talking to a lot of people and trying to get as much information as you can on the topic side, but also on the people side. But not only to try to focus on the content side but also on a more soft skill side. So I think in the end that that will also bring you further in your career. 3. And have you experienced or seen any discrimination or stereotyping relating to your gender during your career? Interviewee Yes, yes, I have, but it wasn't like this really important topic or something that really hindered me. But I have had some comments on the way I look, etcetera. Sort of things that I have had during those years. 4. And do you feel that you are treated differently because of your gender?
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 192 Interviewee No, I do not think I have felt that I have been treated differently. Not on a more personal skill or in interaction with people, but looking at my career at my previous company, I have been treated differently on a payment part of the job. And I didn't really see it during my career, but at the end of my career and now, I see it very clearly. That has definitely been a different treatment. Marja Yeah, wow 5. And do you feel like you are supported by FrieslandCampina to have the best career you can? Through mentoring, training, or coaching? Interviewee Yeah, well, of course, I have not been that long in this, in this current role. So within this role, there are there's a lot for me still to learn and to grow on. I think if you look at my superior is kind of someone who just leaves the people who work for him totally free. So actually, I can do what I want, basically. And then, of course, well expect that if there are any problems. And that you deal with or potential problems for the company that of course you come to him and talk about that problem, but besides that. Yeah, he totally lets me free. So, on one hand, I think that's a good thing because it, of course, gives you also the feeling that you really can have the responsibility of this job on your own. And on the other hand, yeah there potentially could be more monitoring. Uh or how do you say that more uh mentoring. That is the word I was looking for, which is not really there, to be honest. Marja yeah 6. And I have done some research on this topic of gender diversity, and a lot of researchers have questioned whether women's lack of confidence and their personality have an influence on their slower career advancement. What do you think about that? Interviewee Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that. I definitely I see that with myself as well. And also, I think from the two examples which I highlighted earlier, and one is salary. Women tend to Uh tend to think that if they work hard, then the salary rise will come to them automatically. And that's not the case. Whereas men, when they have worked hard, they go to their boss and they actually say, hey, look what I have done. I needed a salary raise. And what you see in practice that yeah, the person that's complains the most uh is treated mostly first in line, and I think that's also the fact with salary. And I have also, for example, at my previous company, I have worked really hard. UM to actually become the senior investment consultant at the end, but then I have definitely been underpaid because I have never asked for a salary raise myself. So that's one. And the other aspect is what I explained earlier that I think in a lot of minds of women, for some reason that I need to work twice as hard to be on the same level as men. And I think those two seasons combined, maybe there are also other reasons, but those two reasons
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 193 are really recognized in myself. I think they definitely are a hinder to grow in your career as fast as you can. Marja Yeah 7. What would you like to have gotten to get over these hindrances? Interviewee Well, for me, one important thing would be but, but probably in The Netherlands that is still a step too far, but be open and out with salaries. So that you really know from all colleagues and all levels in the company what they get paid and if the openness is there. Then, of course, you can see it for yourself and then women can also step up and say hey I am doing exactly the same job as this man, and I get paid less. Because I read an article in the newspaper last year that's on average women in exactly the same job kind of work and get paid until the end of November and then compared to men the entire month of December that are also working, they do that for nothing. So that is one thing. Yeah, that is what I think is important, and maybe the other thing is. Also, I will because these aspects are of course known, but UM, in my career up until now and I have been working now for 17 years, something like that. I have never discussed it the subjects with anyone from either my superiors or anyone from our company. It is just a subject that is not discussed. And I think if there would be room to discuss these kinds of subjects that it would also help in your mindset. Or to actually accomplish a change in your own mindset. Marja And you mean by that, The talk about pay, but also the talk about how you feel that you have to work harder to be treated the same? Interviewee Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 8. And yeah, in your opinion, why do you think that there are less females in leadership positions? Interviewee I think one reason. Which is more general Uh in the Netherlands, maybe also other countries, but I think the Netherlands will really stand out a bit. Is that a lot of women, of course, work in part-time positions Yeah, probably the functions of hay 20 and above are not really compatible to work in a part-time position. Or are perceived to be, I am not really sure about that. But that probably does play a role. Yeah, well, maybe the other uhm points is that, uh, what we discussed earlier that for multiple reasons, maybe women in their earlier part of the of their career are not making steep progress in their career as men do. And ultimately end up at positions that are below hay 20 or comparable. That's another company. And then, of course in the in like in the second part of your career, it is harder to also have a steep growing path and to eventually get there, I think it is it is really important in that first part of your career to make really steep progress. And if you if you have missed that, I think it will be harder and harder to reach these kind of positions.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 194 9. And what advice would you give to women wanting to break the glass ceiling? Interviewee Discuss it. Uh, I think many, many women are unsure about this topic and really keep it to themselves, so really discuss it, make it an agenda point within the company that you work with, discuss it with your colleagues, with your superior, with HR. Marja Yeah 10. And what advice would you have for men that could help to support the break of the glass ceiling? Interviewee Yeah, that's a good question. Yes, that, of course. I also have an equal part in this. I think there are there need there needs to be a change in the mindset of men as well. Because I think some men probably have the tendency of when there's like women, a woman and a man with equal knowledge and with equal experience. That they kind of look at a man first because they can relate to the men better. For us, this kind of more subtle interaction. Keep, of course, the imbalance between men and women as it is, so I think there definitely should be a change in the mindset of men as well. Marja Yes, exactly 11. What recommendations would you have for FrieslandCampina to minimize these gender differences? Interviewee Well, I think it is important to be open about it and to actually have a plan. Uh, to grow to or more balanced. The vision and a real concrete action plan and also be open about it. And also look for external uh, possible external women employees to be attracted in functions like hay 20 and plus. Outcome: Following the pilot test interview, it appeared that the majority of the questions were suitable and that the interviewee comprehended them. A concluding question and another question about part-time job were the only things added following the test interview. The concluding question is introduced to see if the interviewee has any other remarks or anecdotes to share. That way, the women can add anything more to the discussion that they believe is relevant. In addition, because the interviewee mentioned part-time employment as a potential barrier for women, it was agreed to include a question on it in the interview script.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 195 Appendix DD Email Member Check In image 3, below, the email send to each participant after the interview is highlighted. Attached the transcription of the interview was added for the interviewee to check. Image 3, Member Check Email
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 196 Appendix EE Email Before Interview When a possible interviewee responded to the invitation that she would like to be interviewed the email in image 4 is send one day in advance of the interview. Image 4, Email Interview Preparations
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 197 Appendix FF Survey for Follow-up Research Survey Discrimination within Dutch plants It is really important for us to understand how you experience the workplace at FrieslandCampina. Therefore this survey is created to understand how women experience the workplace within the Dutch plants. What is your Hay grade?: Below 13 13-16 17-19 20+ Please let us know how much you agree with the following statements: Strongly Disagree Disagree Neutral Agree Strongly Agree I have not faced any employment prejudice because of my gender When it comes to distributing job assignments, my boss does not take gender into account My gender has no effect on my professional advancement My male coworkers do not treat me differently because of my gender I believe I have the same chances as my male colleagues I have never had anyone comment on how I appear
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 198 I feel at ease working as a woman in the factory I feel appreciated and valued Promotion Strongly Disagree Disagree Neutral Agree Strongly Agree I am happy with how far I have progressed in my career at RFC My manager encourages me to advance in my career I believe I am using my full potential and abilities in my current position I feel secure in asking for a promotion Training and Development Strongly Disagree Disagree Neutral Agree Strongly Agree Internally at RFC, there are several chances for training and growth I have a mentor or boss with whom I can discuss ways to further my career I have opportunity to grow and enhance my experience within my current position
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 199 How would you describe the culture within the plant you work in? How long do you think you will stay working at FrieslandCampina? Less than 2 years 2-5 years 6-10 years More than 10 years I am not sure
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 200 Appendix GG Managers Guide and Checklist to Maternity Leave Managers guide and checklist Maternity Leave Introduction This guide is intended to facilitate you in supporting your employee during their pregnancy, maternity leave, and return to work. Along with this information, please study the RFC's maternity leave policy and procedural documents. Please contact your HR contact if you have any questions that are not answered in this. Step 1 Prior to Maternity Leave When you are aware that a colleague is expecting First and foremost, always congratulate her on her pregnancy (if appropriate); this is an exciting and life-changing time for a woman (and man). When a coworker announces that she is pregnant, it can be tough for her since she is afraid of your reaction. Begin by asking her how she is feeling and then open up the conversation to allow her to feel at ease. Inquire about her practical needs, and make sure you're knowledgeable with your responsibilities as a manager [insert link to content]. Furthermore, ask her if she would want a (female) mentor who is experienced with the process and can share her maternity leave experiences in order to assist the pregnant woman during this time. If this is the case, seek assistance from your HR contact in finding a suitable mentor. Risk Evaluation It is vital to assess the dangers of work on the pregnancy once an employee has publicly revealed her pregnancy. If required, you must take efforts to decrease the danger to the new or expecting mother by changing working circumstances, hours of work, or, if possible, locating a suitable alternative working location. This risk assessment should be updated during each trimester of the employee's pregnancy, or more regularly if the employee requests it. This risk assessment may be reviewed with HR in order to come up with appropriate remedies. Communication Make sure you have frequent check-in appointments with the woman to discuss her pregnancy and offer her the opportunity to provide any updates. Agree with your employee on how to inform coworkers and important stakeholders about their pregnancy.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 201 Talk to your employee on what type of contact you will have with them before they start their maternity leave. Make sure you are both on the same page about how you will communicate throughout this period. For instance, - Does the employee want to be kept informed about changes at work? If that is the case, how would they like updates conveyed to them? (e.g., emails or phone calls) - Would the employee wish to return to work during their maternity leave to stay in contact, attend a specific event, or take advantage of a training opportunity? - Step 2 During the Maternity Leave Connectivity Once your employee has started their maternity leave, it is critical that you keep in touch with them as agreed. It is also critical to keep employees informed about any official changes that may occur in their team or company. Invite them to any of your team's social gatherings. They may not want or be able to come, but being invited is pleasant and can help with feelings of loneliness. If the employee is comfortable with it, it could also be good to make a visit to the team after the baby is delivered. Please keep in mind that having a child is a life-changing event, and their intentions for returning to work may alter. This is absolutely appropriate to do if the employee gives proper notice. If your employee expresses a desire to revise their plans, please communicate with your HR contact. They may also start to contemplate modifying their working hours or days, so look into any flexible working options. Making preparations for a return to work You will have stayed in touch during your employee's maternity leave, and as their return to work approaches, it is critical to discuss and agree on the preparations for their return to work, including risk evaluations, breastfeeding facilities (if applicable), workload, and reintegration. You should know when your employee is expected to return to work. If this date changes, please notify HR services so that they are informed. Your employee may have been off from work for an extended period of time, and returning to work might be a terrifying concept. Create a reintegration program for the employee that is appropriate for the amount of time they have
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 202 been away from work. Consider practicalities for your employee's return, such as office layout / work area. Have they gathered everything they will need when they return? Consider what additional support the employee could require upon their return; it is advisable to schedule regular one on one meetings to ensure they're getting the help they need. If you meet prior to their return to work, you may identify the possible training needs for their return to the workplace. Kindly be advised that employees may prefer to come back to work on a different schedule; be flexible and listen to their demands in order to reach an agreement. Step 3 Following Maternity Leave First day Please make sure you have arranged everything for the employees return, like where and when they need to go to. Notify the rest of the team of the employee's return. As their manager, it would be a good idea to connect with them for a one on one during their first day or shortly after. Meeting to return to work Take the time to make sure your employee is in good health. Returning to work may be a challenging experience. Be encouraging. Give them time to catch up and get back on track. This is an excellent time to go through their reintegration and any appointments you have scheduled for them. Use this meeting to evaluate and update the risk evaluation to reflect the employee's new requirements, or schedule a time to do so if this is not possible. Additionally, double-check that all information about their leave is valid, and that everything is properly recorded. Breastfeeding When your employee gets back to work, she is allowed to time to express and relax if she is nursing. RFC currently has rooms available for nursing mothers. Please advise your employee of this, as well as the rest of the team, that the employee requires time for this.
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 203 More information Kindly have a look at the maternity leave materials that are accessible on SharePoint. If you have any questions or would want to discuss your specific situation, please contact your HR contact. Manager Checklist A checklist is established to ensure that managers follow all of the preceding procedures to ensure a proper maternity leave process (table 16). Table 16, Manager Checklist Prior to Maternity Leave Familiarize yourself with the procedure Ask if she would like a female mentor Perform risk evaluation during all three trimesters of pregnancy Any actions resulting from the risk evaluation should be followed up on Allow employees to take time off for prenatal visits Agree on contact and communication procedures for the leave duration Regular one on one meetings to keep the conversation about work and health ongoing During Maternity Leave Maintain frequent communication with the employee as agreed Invite to departmental meetings, team training etcetera Invite to any social gatherings Ascertain that all practical arrangements are in place for the employees' return Employee reintegration should be planned Inform the employee about the employee's first day back at work Following Maternity Leave Contact them on their first day back, greet them, and walk them through the reintegration process you have prepared Within the first several days, schedule a return to work meeting Review the risk evaluation and make a note of any actions that need to be taken Verify that your employee is doing well and that she is settling in Agree on any training needs that have been identified Notify your employee about the special area set up for breastfeeding and relaxing
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 204 Check with HR to see whether everything is properly documented
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 205 Appendix HH Project Agreement
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 206
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 207
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Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within Royal FrieslandCampina Marja Veening, 386952 208 Appendix II Disclaimer This disclaimer clarifies that I, Marja Veening, submitted this thesis on the topic of "Gender Imbalance in Positions of Power within FrieslandCampina" as part of the requirements for the Bachelor of Business Administration degree at the Hanze University of Applied Sciences' International Business School. Furthermore, the whole content of this thesis is completely my own work, and no material from other sources have been used, unless such sources have been mentioned and acknowledged. Student name and number: Date: Marja Veening 02f-06-2022 386952
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