Alan Ivy: And now, what Mary and I would like to do would be a demonstration of the origins of micro skills. It's also an exercise, you'll see early in the book. The idea is to, what can go wrong in a counseling session, and compare that with what, you know, what should be done. Compare the negative with a positive. How did we start micro skills? We spent six months trying to demystify, and that's what micros counseling is about. Demystifying [inaudible] process, but after six months we got nowhere. So we invited our secretary in for an interview, and, fortunately, she did a terrible job on videotape but then looked at the tape, and said aha. This is what we need to do. We sent her back, and she was really very good. I Was very skilled at the interviewing process. And then she came home that following weekend and said, Alan, I went home. I used the attending skills. My husband and I had just one of the most beautiful weekends. Thank you. So these skills are not just for counselors. You can train them in clients, but let's demonstrate a negative and a positive thing here, Mary, - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: OK. >> Alan Ivy: - You're volunteering to be the client - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Yes - >> Alan Ivy: I'm going to do, hopefully, less than skilled job - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: OK. >> Alan Ivy: So, and let's assume we've started, and Mary had said that she was having some problems with her children. Mary, now, I think you've been saying that you've had some difficulties with your kids. Could you tell me what's going on? >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Well, you know, I had the two daughters, and sometimes the mother-daughter get, gets in, get into a little difficulties, and, I mean, I can't say it's a huge problem, we love each other - >> Alan Ivy: [Crosstalk] said little difficulties - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Well, they're not. >> Alan Ivy: So [inaudible] is not really that big. Is that right? >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Well, it's not real big, but, you know, I try and, I try not to tell them what to do, but I end up telling them what to do anyway, and that sort of leads to a conflict and problems - >> Alan Ivy: Well - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: And - >> Alan Ivy: OK. Are you telling them in a way that's really strong enough? >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Well, I don't know. I don't want to tell them too, so strong. I want to be in less - >> Alan Ivy: By the way, how old are they - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Well, they're now in their 30's. So they're all grown up but [crosstalk] - >> Alan Ivy: In their 30's, and you're still telling them what to do? >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Well, I guess that's what a mother - >> Alan Ivy: [crosstalk] I, I guess that - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: [laughs] I don't even know what I was saying. It's really hard, you know. This is why I can tell you're not listening to me. [ Pause ] >> Alan Ivy: Let's try to do a, a little different job - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: OK. >> Alan Ivy: And the idea that it really is the more forward [inaudible] - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Yeah. >> Alan Ivy: And the eye contact, which, by the way, keeps a mindful cultural difference. Working in [inaudible], what do we find in Australia? >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: In Australia, the people really look, don't look at each other - >> Alan Ivy: Yeah. >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: They're - >> Alan Ivy: Aboriginals. >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Aboriginals look sort of side, side like, like this, up and down, side to side, and they sit side by side. So it's a very different communication pattern than what we're [crosstalk] experiencing - >> Alan Ivy: And that's true in many, many different cultures - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Right. >> Alan Ivy: You've gotta be careful about use of space and such a thing, but - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Yeah. >> Alan Ivy: For the moment, let's just use the standard middle class American way, which tends to be effective as well. So, Mary, you say you've been having some difficulties with your kids lately. What's going on? >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Well, I think this goes back to even when they were in high school. They never used to clean their rooms, and now that they're married, you know, they're, they're better housekeepers, I should say, but - >> Alan Ivy: So they're better housekeepers. >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Yeah, but they, you know, they want me to come and help out, and I, first thing I do is I come into that kitchen of theirs, and I, I sort of want to start cleaning [laughs] because it's such a mess, and I start, I mean, I - >> Alan Ivy: So. >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: You know, I sort of say, well, now - >> Alan Ivy: You really care about them, and you really would like to help - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: I'd like to help. I care about them. I think they need some help. So the first thing I do is start cleaning the refrigerator, and then I would start telling them, well, maybe if they did this and organized it this way, and if they put the kitchen like this, well, you know, that doesn't work to tell - >> Alan Ivy: So >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: An adult - >> Alan Ivy: One hand, on one hand, you, you want to help them - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Right - >> Alan Ivy: On the other hand, you feel like you're maybe in, interfering, is that right? >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Interfering. Yeah, and [inaudible] it really doesn't work - >> Alan Ivy: That the right word? >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: It, interfering, yeah. Trying not to, but, I mean, I want to help them, but it, telling them [crosstalk] what to do - >> Alan Ivy: So the real goal is to help. >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Real goal is to help them, but [crosstalk] I'm trying to tell them what to do doesn't work. >> Alan Ivy: So things that didn't work when they were kids - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: [laughs] No. It didn't work when they were kids either. So I don't know. It's the same old thing. >> Alan Ivy: So given that, we can sort of start a little bit. So what kind of is your line thinking about how well it worked with, when they were kids and how well it works now? >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Well, when kids I could say things like, OK, you must clean up room once a week, and, you know, we had sort of a, a plan like that, and the rest of the time I'd just close the door and try to ignore it [inaudible] - >> Alan Ivy: So you close the [crosstalk] door and ignore it? >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Because it was a disaster. Right. >> Alan Ivy: And how would you feel when you tried to ignore it? >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Well, I always felt like, oh, my goodness, it was such a [inaudible]. How can they stand to live like that? I mean, how can you find your clothes if they're all stacked up on the chair? How could you - >> Alan Ivy: So, so you kept worrying - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Right. I mean, like, it would - >> Alan Ivy: And how is it now for you when you - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Well, I just keep thinking life would be simpler if you organized your kitchen a little better, if you cleaned your refrigerator and got rid of the old food, life would be easier. It wouldn't be so, it wouldn't be so difficult. >> Alan Ivy: I'm hearing now, I really hear your caring and desire to make the kids' life better. You know, I'm hearing your [inaudible] - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Well, that's probably right. I think it might make life easier and less confusing if they had [crosstalk] [laughs] this organized. >> Alan Ivy: I, I hear, I hear, I hear your caring. Now, this is obviously a problem that isn't going to be resolved here today. >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: [laughs] >> Alan Ivy: And for those of you that have mothers, I'm sure we'll understand what's going on here. The same time, what you do is you'd like to draw out the client's story from the client's point of view. How is it for you, Mary? >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Much better this time. I, I was confused last time. I couldn't even tell my story because you kept doing very distracting interruptive kinds of things, and I, it was a lot easier to tell my story this time. >> Alan Ivy: What stood out for you? >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: This time, you were listening, and you, you know, gave words of encouragement, you paraphrased, you gave a reflection of feeling, of how I was feeling about this, and you framed it. >> Alan Ivy: So it takes more time than this to solve the problem - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Oh, yes, definitely. >> Alan Ivy: The reframing was when I talked about caring and - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Right. Caring. [crosstalk] >> Alan Ivy: Re, reframed - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: [crosstalk] [laughs] >> Alan Ivy: [Inaudible] [crosstalk] And actually, that was a dangerous thing I did. I think we ought to remember that was Mary's, not Mary's word, that was my word, and I think we're all going to make errors in the counseling interview, and I would call that one an error. And on the issue, as Mike Plummer said, it's not the making errors, it's how you correct from making the errors. So relax, be yourself and honor it. [ Silence ] Questions 1. What specific things did you notice about Allen's attending and listening behavior during the negative example? 2.What specific things did you notice about Allen's attending and listening behavior during the positive example? 3.Now, turn your attention to Mary, the client. What did you observe during the negative example? What was her feedback? 4.What did you observe during the positive example? Describe Mary's reaction and feedback.

>> Alan Ivy: And now, what Mary and I would like to do would be a demonstration of the origins of micro skills. It's also an exercise, you'll see early in the book. The idea is to, what can go wrong in a counseling session, and compare that with what, you know, what should be done. Compare the negative with a positive. How did we start micro skills? We spent six months trying to demystify, and that's what micros counseling is about. Demystifying [inaudible] process, but after six months we got nowhere. So we invited our secretary in for an interview, and, fortunately, she did a terrible job on videotape but then looked at the tape, and said aha. This is what we need to do. We sent her back, and she was really very good. I Was very skilled at the interviewing process. And then she came home that following weekend and said, Alan, I went home. I used the attending skills. My husband and I had just one of the most beautiful weekends. Thank you. So these skills are not just for counselors. You can train them in clients, but let's demonstrate a negative and a positive thing here, Mary, - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: OK. >> Alan Ivy: - You're volunteering to be the client - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Yes - >> Alan Ivy: I'm going to do, hopefully, less than skilled job - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: OK. >> Alan Ivy: So, and let's assume we've started, and Mary had said that she was having some problems with her children. Mary, now, I think you've been saying that you've had some difficulties with your kids. Could you tell me what's going on? >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Well, you know, I had the two daughters, and sometimes the mother-daughter get, gets in, get into a little difficulties, and, I mean, I can't say it's a huge problem, we love each other - >> Alan Ivy: [Crosstalk] said little difficulties - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Well, they're not. >> Alan Ivy: So [inaudible] is not really that big. Is that right? >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Well, it's not real big, but, you know, I try and, I try not to tell them what to do, but I end up telling them what to do anyway, and that sort of leads to a conflict and problems - >> Alan Ivy: Well - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: And - >> Alan Ivy: OK. Are you telling them in a way that's really strong enough? >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Well, I don't know. I don't want to tell them too, so strong. I want to be in less - >> Alan Ivy: By the way, how old are they - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Well, they're now in their 30's. So they're all grown up but [crosstalk] - >> Alan Ivy: In their 30's, and you're still telling them what to do? >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Well, I guess that's what a mother - >> Alan Ivy: [crosstalk] I, I guess that - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: [laughs] I don't even know what I was saying. It's really hard, you know. This is why I can tell you're not listening to me. [ Pause ] >> Alan Ivy: Let's try to do a, a little different job - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: OK. >> Alan Ivy: And the idea that it really is the more forward [inaudible] - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Yeah. >> Alan Ivy: And the eye contact, which, by the way, keeps a mindful cultural difference. Working in [inaudible], what do we find in Australia? >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: In Australia, the people really look, don't look at each other - >> Alan Ivy: Yeah. >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: They're - >> Alan Ivy: Aboriginals. >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Aboriginals look sort of side, side like, like this, up and down, side to side, and they sit side by side. So it's a very different communication pattern than what we're [crosstalk] experiencing - >> Alan Ivy: And that's true in many, many different cultures - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Right. >> Alan Ivy: You've gotta be careful about use of space and such a thing, but - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Yeah. >> Alan Ivy: For the moment, let's just use the standard middle class American way, which tends to be effective as well. So, Mary, you say you've been having some difficulties with your kids lately. What's going on? >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Well, I think this goes back to even when they were in high school. They never used to clean their rooms, and now that they're married, you know, they're, they're better housekeepers, I should say, but - >> Alan Ivy: So they're better housekeepers. >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Yeah, but they, you know, they want me to come and help out, and I, first thing I do is I come into that kitchen of theirs, and I, I sort of want to start cleaning [laughs] because it's such a mess, and I start, I mean, I - >> Alan Ivy: So. >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: You know, I sort of say, well, now - >> Alan Ivy: You really care about them, and you really would like to help - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: I'd like to help. I care about them. I think they need some help. So the first thing I do is start cleaning the refrigerator, and then I would start telling them, well, maybe if they did this and organized it this way, and if they put the kitchen like this, well, you know, that doesn't work to tell - >> Alan Ivy: So >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: An adult - >> Alan Ivy: One hand, on one hand, you, you want to help them - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Right - >> Alan Ivy: On the other hand, you feel like you're maybe in, interfering, is that right? >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Interfering. Yeah, and [inaudible] it really doesn't work - >> Alan Ivy: That the right word? >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: It, interfering, yeah. Trying not to, but, I mean, I want to help them, but it, telling them [crosstalk] what to do - >> Alan Ivy: So the real goal is to help. >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Real goal is to help them, but [crosstalk] I'm trying to tell them what to do doesn't work. >> Alan Ivy: So things that didn't work when they were kids - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: [laughs] No. It didn't work when they were kids either. So I don't know. It's the same old thing. >> Alan Ivy: So given that, we can sort of start a little bit. So what kind of is your line thinking about how well it worked with, when they were kids and how well it works now? >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Well, when kids I could say things like, OK, you must clean up room once a week, and, you know, we had sort of a, a plan like that, and the rest of the time I'd just close the door and try to ignore it [inaudible] - >> Alan Ivy: So you close the [crosstalk] door and ignore it? >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Because it was a disaster. Right. >> Alan Ivy: And how would you feel when you tried to ignore it? >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Well, I always felt like, oh, my goodness, it was such a [inaudible]. How can they stand to live like that? I mean, how can you find your clothes if they're all stacked up on the chair? How could you - >> Alan Ivy: So, so you kept worrying - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Right. I mean, like, it would - >> Alan Ivy: And how is it now for you when you - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Well, I just keep thinking life would be simpler if you organized your kitchen a little better, if you cleaned your refrigerator and got rid of the old food, life would be easier. It wouldn't be so, it wouldn't be so difficult. >> Alan Ivy: I'm hearing now, I really hear your caring and desire to make the kids' life better. You know, I'm hearing your [inaudible] - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Well, that's probably right. I think it might make life easier and less confusing if they had [crosstalk] [laughs] this organized. >> Alan Ivy: I, I hear, I hear, I hear your caring. Now, this is obviously a problem that isn't going to be resolved here today. >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: [laughs] >> Alan Ivy: And for those of you that have mothers, I'm sure we'll understand what's going on here. The same time, what you do is you'd like to draw out the client's story from the client's point of view. How is it for you, Mary? >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Much better this time. I, I was confused last time. I couldn't even tell my story because you kept doing very distracting interruptive kinds of things, and I, it was a lot easier to tell my story this time. >> Alan Ivy: What stood out for you? >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: This time, you were listening, and you, you know, gave words of encouragement, you paraphrased, you gave a reflection of feeling, of how I was feeling about this, and you framed it. >> Alan Ivy: So it takes more time than this to solve the problem - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Oh, yes, definitely. >> Alan Ivy: The reframing was when I talked about caring and - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: Right. Caring. [crosstalk] >> Alan Ivy: Re, reframed - >> Mary Bradford-Ivy: [crosstalk] [laughs] >> Alan Ivy: [Inaudible] [crosstalk] And actually, that was a dangerous thing I did. I think we ought to remember that was Mary's, not Mary's word, that was my word, and I think we're all going to make errors in the counseling interview, and I would call that one an error. And on the issue, as Mike Plummer said, it's not the making errors, it's how you correct from making the errors. So relax, be yourself and honor it. [ Silence ] Questions 1. What specific things did you notice about Allen's attending and listening behavior during the negative example? 2.What specific things did you notice about Allen's attending and listening behavior during the positive example? 3.Now, turn your attention to Mary, the client. What did you observe during the negative example? What was her feedback? 4.What did you observe during the positive example? Describe Mary's reaction and feedback.