CLAS 1P91 Seminar 5 Readings Questions
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Brock University *
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1P91
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Political Science
Date
Dec 6, 2023
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Uploaded by AmbassadorWaterBuffaloMaster1004
Courtney Fraser
Student Number: 7446719
1. Why does Cleon feel that democracy is incapable of empire?
Is he right or wrong?
Cleon feels the democracy is incapable of empire due to world leadership as he uses the Romans,
Athenians and Americans as examples of choosing democracy and losing their empire or choosing their
empire and keep their leadership. Democracy and leadership in an empire are hard to balance together
but the decision of choosing one over the other often causes the loss of what they didn’t choose.
2. In your view, what are Cleon’s best arguments in favor of carrying out the punishment of Mitylene?
Cleon’s best arguments in favour of carrying out the punishment of Mitylene are that one should be
punished as their crime requires and if one is subject to the same punishment the ally who is forced to
rebel by the enemy and him who does so by his own free choice will not rebel upon the slightest pretext
when the reward of success is freedom, and the penalty is bad.
3. In his discussion of the Corcyrean Revolution, do you agree with Thucydides’ dark and cynical
discussion of human nature laid bare by war?
I do agree with Thucydides dark and cynical discussion of human nature laid bare by war as he would
have a statesmen encourage opposite views than his, but he added another order that brought a halt to
the wholesale massacre of the Mitylenians. His discussion showed the brutality and desperation that
arises during conflicts that leads to people to commit unthinkable acts that would not be taken in times
of peace. Although there are occasions of heroism and selflessness during war, Thucydides observations
serve as a reminder of the dangers of the unchecked violence and the striving to peace and diplomacy.
4. In your view, do the Athenians or the Melians have the stronger argument?
Explain your answer.
The Athenians were the stronger military force, while the Melians were a small but proud city-state that
refused to surrender to Athenian rule. The Athenians argued that it was the natural order of things for
the stronger to dominate the weaker and that it was in the best interests of the Melians to surrender
peacefully. They also maintained that the Melians would receive fair treatment as allies of Athens. In
terms of strength of argument, it can be argued that the Athenians had the stronger case. They had a
powerful army and could easily crush the Melians if they did not surrender. Their argument was based
on the idea of pragmatis (attitude or policy) and was supported by their military might. While the
Melians made a valid argument for their right to self-determination, they did not have the military
strength to back it up. Ultimately, the Athenians were able to successfully invade and conquer Melos,
demonstrating the superiority of their argument.
5. Are the officials of Melos right in their refusal to submit to Athens? Why or why not?
In the case of the officials of Melos, they were faced with the demand of the Athenians to either submit
to their rule and pay tribute or face military conquest. The Melians argued that they had the right to
remain neutral and not join any side, as they had not harmed Athens and did not pose a threat to them.
Courtney Fraser
Student Number: 7446719
The Athenians, on the other hand, claimed that might makes right and that they had the power to do as
they pleased. They argued that their empire was founded on the principle of self-interest, and that it was
in their interest to subjugate weaker states and extract tribute from them. The Athenians also warned
the Melians that if they refused to submit, they would set an example for other cities to follow, and that
it would be foolish for them to rely on hope and prayers rather than practical considerations. Ultimately,
the Melians refused to submit and fought against the Athenians, but they were defeated and subjected
to brutal treatment, including enslavement and execution of the men, and enslavement of the women
and children. Thucydides concludes that the Melians were undone by their own folly, as they
underestimated the power of the Athenians and overestimated their own strength. Therefore, from a
moral standpoint, one could argue that the Melians were right to resist the Athenians' unjust demands
and not give up their freedom and sovereignty. However, from a practical standpoint, one could argue
that the Melians made a poor choice by not accepting the Athenians' offer of mercy and sparing
themselves from the devastating consequences of their defiance.
6. What place does morality have in war?
Based on the readings, what do you think Thucydides’ opinion
about this is? Do you agree?
Thucydides' opinion is that morality has a place in war, but it is often overshadowed by the practical
aspects of conflict. He recognizes that soldiers and leaders often behave immorally during war, but also
believes that a just war is possible. Thucydides suggests that leaders must be aware of the moral
implications of their actions and strive to act justly during wartime. Mortality should have a place in war
as there should be some kind of respect and reason of why they are having war and not go against their
morals and just go to war for fun and not have a reason of why they are doing what they were doing.
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